[Food] The great grit debate

[desert penguin1337]

OK, I'm sure that this will start another huge argument (though fortunately people don't actually get mad ) because I'm bringing up the so controversial grit, but I need to know, has anyone here successfully raised budgies without any grit at all, or has everybody found they need it? (whether a little or a lot I'm not getting into that, that's where the big fight starts) thanks!

[featherjinxer]

Yup, 6 years, no grit, healthy, and going strong .

Budgies are hookbills, which shell their seeds.
Pigions (birds with straight beaks) swallow seeds whole.

Birds who swollow them whole, such as the pigions, need grit to help grind up to seeds/hulls. Because budgies hull the seeds, they do not need grit.

BTW, since budgies are not 'made' for girit, you often find they die through crop impactaion, or lacerations. If you are in U.S. especially, poor-quality grit is sold, sharp pieces & sand often included.

[Tviokh]

Grit should never be used.
It is not necessary for any hookbilled parrot/parakeet.

These birds, budgies included, hull their seeds.

Grit is only required for birds that eat their seeds whole, such as doves. With these birds grit IS necessary for digestion.

Since budgies, and other hookbills, hull their seeds, grit is not necessary.

Grit can cause crop impaction and death.

From my Bird FAQ:

Hookbills hull their seeds, and thus do not need grit for proper digestion.
The grit is needed to grind up seed hulls, which hookbills don't eat anyway.

Birds on a pelleted diet, fresh food diet, or a combo of fresh food/pellets do not need grit for digestion. Insoluable grit can and does cause crop impaction and death, especially if a bird gorges on it.
Your best bet for clacium would be crushed egg shells, cuttlebone, or a mineral block.
Oyster shells can be offered in moderation, but CAN cause crop impaction if gorged upon; it'd be best to offer just a tiny amount so that can't happen.

Only birds who don't hull seeds(chickens, doves, etc...) require grit to digest food.

www.birdsnways.com/wisdom/ww58eii.htm

www.quakerville.com/qic/grit.asp

[Aviennda]

Most birds who hull their seeds don't need grit.

Some birds who eat grit who don't need it die because of impaction.

Some birds who have a nutritional imbalance eat more grit than they should and, again, die due to impaction because of overeating grit.

I have never heard of a hookbill dying because of lack of grit.

I have heard of several hookbills dying because of impaction due to overeating grit.

Thus, in MY opinion, better safe than sorry and provide minimal to no grit and feed seeds, fruits, veggies and grains.

Some people seem to be "spoiling for a fight" on this topic as on certain others, but why fight? Do what seems safest for your birds. Do your research and make an educated decision. Good luck.

[mattybgood67]

firstly : this is a really old thread....
and this is for kimberley and caiquecrazy

Almost all Australian parrots have access to grit. This probably horrifies all you North Americans. But before you get me up before the animal cruelty groups, we NEVER, I repeat, NEVER, see any problems with grit. My vet, President of the Australian chapter of AAV, has only ever seen two instances of impacted crops in 15 years of practice.

One was a tiel with a crop full of human hair from over preening his owner, and the other a lorikeet which had gone crazy with mango (understandable) and had a crop full of mango fibres. It is one of the great mysteries of aviculture why North American parrots are apparently so willing to get their crops full of grit and suffer impaction, while Australian birds never get this problem.

My own theory is that our birds are just more intelligent!<G> I do know that every parrot I have autopsied has had some grit in its gizzard, and I believe that grit does help the bird to more efficiently grind up the seed in the gizzard, thus reducing physiological stress. Also all wild parrots apparently have been found to have some grit in their gizzard, and I don't think they would swallow it if they didn't find it useful. I do acknowledge that grit is not essential, but I do believe it is useful. So, grit is a mystery, even RHH comment on the paradox, and the latest edition of Australia's text on bird health, "Everybird" edition, still recommends that grit be made available, which we do without problem.

I must start out by emphasizing that my comments refer only to those species of parrots I am personally familiar with, that is the Australian parrots, Lovebirds, and Asiatics. Unfortunately Macaws, Amazons, and many other species of non-Australian parrots are extremely rare here in Australia, and outside my price range to keep.

I can assure those doubting that wild parrots intentionally consume grit that, from my own observatons, they do deliberately pick up and swallow grit. I have watched flocks of Corellas, Galahs, Major Mitchells, budgies, and other species, deliberately land on sand banks in dry inland river beds and peck away and swallow sand grains. It is a deliberate action on their part. In addition we all know the incredible ability of parrots to manipulate even very small seeds with their beak and tongue, while husking and then swallowing the seed. Given that ability, it is highly unlikely that a wild parrot would accidentally swallow grit.

What is surprising is the large amount of grit usually to be found in the gizzard of an autopsied wild parrot. A Rosella for instance might have up to 50 grains of grit in the gizzard. These range in size from perhaps white French millet size, down to almost microscopic size - presumably reflecting the amount of wear that the grain has undergone. At a recent Parrot Convention held in Grafton that I attended, one talk was by an avian vet, and was a demonstration of how to autopsy a parrot. The "victim" was a road kill Galah, and it's gizzard had a pile of grit in it - almost half filled!

Birds that do not hull their seed such as finches, doves and quail have to have grit to properly digest their seed. Finches will die from starvation if they don't have grit in their gizzard. As for how the practice of giving grit to parrots started, I would think it far more likely that it was as a result of both watching wild parrots and seeing what was in the bird's gizzard when wild parrots were dissected.

Actually when an autopsy is done on a seed-eating parrot, it is surprising just how much seed seems to be swallowed unhusked. Some birds might have 20% or more of the seed in their crop which is unhusked, particularly the smaller millets and pannicums.

Parrots can certainly live their whole lives without grit. The question is whether having a significant amount of grit helps that bird to have a less-stressed (= more efficient) digestive system. I believe that it does. Anything that makes it easier, and more efficient for the bird to grind up the seed before the digestive system gets to work must be a help to the bird.

This idea that a sick bird will gorge on grit is a common one in the USA - all I can say is that I have never, ever, come across such a case. I have never seen an autopsied parrot with a gizzard full of grit and never seen grit at all in the proventriculus. I also find it incredible that a single vet in Florida sees hundreds of grit impaction cases a year, while Australian vets see none! Something is wrong here. Perhaps with USA vets not having exposure to wild parrot autopsies, they are not used to the large amount of grit that can occur in healthy wild birds. What they are diagnosing as gizzard impaction, to Australian vets might be a healthy and normal grit load for a bird.

My mention of crop impaction was solely because no case of gizzard impaction was seen, although some of the list stories from the USA do refer to crop impaction due to grit being a problem.

One could get speculative here, so here goes! While parrots can digest their food without grit, perhaps birds have indeed died from "grit deficiency". Perhaps, as some later replies have alluded to, an absence of grit might lead to a long term digestive system problem due to inefficient absorption of nutrients due to inefficient grinding of seed. Such a deficiency may never show up as a primary cause of early death, but may result in a depressed immune system, and result in a bird having an earlier death than it should have. One could speculate in all sorts of directions here, but it will remain purely speculation. Even designing an experiment to test that hypothesis is daunting, never mind funding the 20 year lifespan of a project which would involve hundreds of birds!

Some comment has been made about possible compositional differences in the grit provided. I don't believe that is of any relevance. The grit used by Australians tends to be whatever is handy. As long as it is small (about millet size) then it doesn't seem to matter, if it is quartz, crushed volcanic rock or any other rock. Some use river sand, others beach sand, and others quarry crushings. My mix - a local river sand sold by landscape yards - is probably about 75% silica, with the rest being a real mixture. As I mentioned previously, crushed shell grit is useful only as a calcium source, it dissolves too quickly, and is too soft, to be of value in gizzard grinding.

While I am happy and relaxed about giving my birds unlimited access to grit, I neither encourage nor discourage anyone else to provide grit. It is a choice that has to be made by each individual, like the choice to feed pellets or seed (or neither!). And, as always, if in doubt - DON'T.

cheers, Mike Owen Queensland Australian Rep. World Parrot Trust.

worth reading

regards
matty

[sweetytweety]

i have yet to meet a breeder who doesnt have grit in their aviaries
i know two show judges..one state one national
they use grit they advocate the use of grit

its all a debate it seems because of regional differences...aussie vets recommend grit
i asked my avian vet again ..they all go to national and international conferences ...
us vets dont push grit..aussies do...
like someone said here already
it must be something about the type of grit aussies use..or it might be something in the constitution of the aussie bird...
we dont import or export birds anymore
maybe we have developed a 'superbird' lol?

nah...look,,im still using it unless im dosing my flock with something and the stuff tells u to withdraw it while the birds are being medicated
but i will watch closely and inform if theres any harmful effects of grit in my birds...i have a network of about nine breeders that i socialise with,...so ill be talking to them about it too

[Melza]

i agree, grit is a good source of calcium, and should be fed especially during breeding, so that the eggs the female produce have a strong shell and hence reduce the risk of egg binding.

however birds that eat grit may still get egg bound.

[amanda143]

This was posted on another site I frequent and it made sense to me. Hope it clears some things up for some other people too.

GRit is not all the same. There is Grit for gizzard function (small rocks) then there is grit for calcium and gizzard function (oyster shell grit) then there is calcium supplements (cuttle bone, mineral block, added calcium powder. All birds need calcium with hens needing more during egg laying. They will take what they need as long as it is readily available. Cuttle bone being the easiest and safest. Mineral powder added to food can cause them to get too much and Oyster shell can cause them not to get any if they dont like it (some birds dont). GRIT on the other hand for gizzard function is NOT for hookbills and is no benefit and sits in the digestive system like a pile of sand. GRIT is needed in birds who do not hull the seeds they eat like pigeons, and chickens and some softbills. Most of our pet birds hull the seeds first, even the canaries and finches do. Even though the boxes of grit display our little budgies on the front does not mean its a good thing. If its Oyster shell grit its for calcium but allot of birds wont eat enough of that to care. I always put in a Cuttle bone (bone from the cuttle fish) and some sort of flavored mineral block to give my birds a choice and when I was breeding I bought Cuttle bones in bulk and they would go thru them. My bourkes like the bones best. You can even find cuttle bones with a "shell" or backing of man made mineral block attached that is flavored and colored for small birds.
This is all information I have gathered from years of research, advise of vetrinarians and several bird breeders and avian specialists.