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  1. #1
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    poop with undigested seed

    I have never seen poop before with undigested millet seeds (two)... has anyone seen this? Is your bird healthy?

    I recently added some coated seed so I am hoping it's that.
    Last edited by RobinD; 08-24-2007 at 09:49 PM.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Hi Robin, sorry to hear you are still having problems. I don't know anything about this, but I know that Ian has had similar problems (http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...ad.php?t=44544). I am guessing it is Tillie? Poor thing

    Hope it clears up soon!

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    Hatched! RobinD's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Thanks. Yes, it's Tillie. There are all kinds of new variables as I am doing Dr. Rob Marshall's Health Programme. i probably should not have posted this query, but I get so worried with her. So I will just place some gravel/grit/charcoal on the bottom of her cage which I had removed (the program says there is grit in the food so I don't need any).

    She seems better sometimes, worse other times (enough to make me crazy!) It's been almost 8 weeks since I noticed she was ill. But overall she has improved over the weeks and that is the important factor.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Poor Tillie just wont get better, I hate to say it but usually seeing seeds in the poop is not a good thing at all. I hope it is the coated seeds and other things causing this and not anything else. Have you looked at your other birds poos to see if they are doing the same thing?
    Fly Free Boomer, we will forever love you.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    The other birds are all healthy and I don't see any changes in them.

    I read all kinds of bad things about undigested food last night and decided that it could be the worst (pdd, but x-rays did not show a distended abdomen) or it could be just what it looks like, a bird with gi problems that have not yet resolved.

    I have been having trouble making vet appts because the good ones have taken long vacations this week. I have one in four days at an avian vet that vet #1 recently recommended and one in three weeks at the hospital. I think I used up the other two vets. It is also really important to find a vet with equipment.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    While I'm getting really analytical about poop lately, Tillie has been happy and active and singing out to her beau -- even in the morning! So I am thrilled by that. But she is still pooping out undigested millet seed, one seed to each poop during the day, more at night. Seed is light tan in color and hard as if never digested at all. This is Day #3 on these particular symptoms and I switched her back to regular seed (from the coated seed mix from the Health Programme) late last night.

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    Hatched! RobinD's Avatar
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    I have a plan.

    OK I have a plan.

    I have a getting-better-every-day-though-slowly Tillie bird who now has undigested seeds in her stool, so where have I gone wrong? yes, I did go wrong, I think. Because I went with the Dr. Rob Marshall health programme but didn't do much more because I wanted to follow the program as it is written. That means bacteria/yeast cleaner one day, and vitamins for four days, three days with nothing. So you can see that I left out the Bene-Bac and the Avian Enzymes.

    I can see that the enzymes might be the key to better digestion for Tillie. I received some Harrison's Avian Enzyme from the vet (when I said the word 'holistic' to her) and didn't take it as seriously as I should have, because she didn't say anything and also I was starting on the new programme.

    But I was on a PDD site (I don't even want to think of that as a possiblity) and a lady is swearing by Prozyme as helping her bird immensely. If you read the caption under Harrison's Avian Enzyme it sounds miraculous. Here it is, below:

    "For parrots, pigeons and other birds as a source of live, naturally-occurring enzymes. For birds with incomplete digestion, such as birds with chronic pancreatitis, malabsorption syndrome, proventricular dilatation or neonates with slow-emptying of the digestive system. May be beneficial in Day 1-7 neonates being hand-fed. Also indicated in chronically ill or geriatric birds that seem to not be getting all the benefits from their food and for sick birds under stress of illness. For hand-feeding when formula seems too thick when the correct amounts of water and powder are used."

    So that's the plan. I'm psyched! Meanwhile, Tillie is looking much much much much better. And the rest of the Harrison product line also looks very tempting, though I've spent a lot of money and need to give my bank account a rest.

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    Tailfeather boomer girl's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    I have heard very good things about the harrisons Avian Enzyme, it could really help Tillie out.

    Has the seeds in the poop got any better since you changed to the regular seeds? I wonder if maybe you should call the girl who sent you the Dr. Marshall program to ask if they have heard of this doing this to any other bird, maybe it is something in the program that is causing seeds in the poop. Poor little Tillie goes from one thing to another but it least she seems to be getting better with the other stuff going on with her. I am happy to hear she is feeling better and hopefully soon the poo problem will clear up and she will get better all the way.

    Money is a good thing to have around, I know the feeling of having your check book drained with vet bills but in the end it least you are trying to help her out. I have never owned a "cheap" animal, they always cost me loads of money but to me it is so worth it because all they ever wanted in life was our love so why not give them back what you can and vet bills were always one of those giving things we did for all our dogs, cats and now boomer.
    Fly Free Boomer, we will forever love you.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    I hope you work it out soon Robin and that tillie gets better.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Tillie is acting more and more like a bird... though she is still in her hospital cage and still needs the heat overnight at least. I am going to blame it on Dr. Rob Marshall's health programme for birds that she is looking so well. However, she is still pooping out undigested millet seed, and although I think it is better it is still there. When you smush it between a paper towel you can feel all the hard undigested millet.

    I have done a lot of reading lately and it seems that the #1 antidote for pooping undigested seed when there are no other signs is digestive enzymes. So I have placed her on Harrison's Avian Enzymes and also Benebac (lactobacillus) along with the vitamin/mineral program.

    Now that I started that I noticed that almost all the digestive enzymes and other health boosters that I take for myself are also available for birds. There is even a discussion on www.holisticbird.org that argues over the controversy of species-specific lactobacillus and claims that the best one to use is the one that is still bio-available rather than worry about whether it's for a bird or a human.

    It is really weird to find the actual products that I take for myself (and work!) on a web site called www.wellvet.com that is run by Dr. David McCluggage who is a holistic bird vet.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    We had a problem with Tori haven't undigested seed about a year and a half ago. Tony took her to a vet (not an avian vet) and they didn't seem to concerned. I still was but we didn't have any avian vets around at the time so we just kept an eye on her and within a couple of weeks, it went away. I don't know what it was.

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    I would be thrilled if it just went away one day! Tillie's been sick for such a long time (almost 8 weeks) I hope there will be an easy resolution...

  13. #13
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Cookie was pooping out undigested millet seeds months ago. As she was healthy in every other sense i didn't worry too much, and it just went away after a week or so. No idea what it was, but she sure isn't any worse off from it.

    Visit Busy Beaks Blog to read about our day-to-day lives and adventures!



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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    I've actually just noticed this the other day with Baby. She seems to hold her droppings a bit and does a large one when I come home and take her out. Tonight there was quite a bit of undigested millet in there... The smaller droppings seem to be ok. She's been on calcium and Avian Booster vitamins while I change her diet.

    Anyway, this is clearly not any help to you, but more of an add on. Baby was under stress for a while because of a hurt leg and antibiotics for her lungs. Maybe this is due to stress? Perhaps a diet change? Either way, I've never seen this before and hope it just goes away as well...

    Good luck, and hopefully we can both find a resolution...

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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Tillie still has undigested seeds, I would say I'm seeing this for a month now. I think the digestive enzymes are helping, because I don't see the millet seed in the poop any more, though I can still feel little hard things in the poop in the a.m. when I fold up the paper.

    I get much better results once a week when I can actually coat the seed with the digestive enzymes. Then when I fold up the paper I can feel that the little hard things feel softer to the touch. (I am following a vet's health program where once a week I coat the seeds with his vit/min mix and it sticks because one of the ingredients is wet).

    I think that when I just put the stuff (enzymes and lactobacillus) on the top of her seeds that she is getting too much of it loose and it is giving her the runs. On the other hand, Tillie is still convalescing after 10 weeks so some of her issues might still be relating to that.

    I think the common denominator, Holly, is that both birds came off of a period on antibiotics and maybe that is very hard on our birdies' digestive systems.
    Last edited by RobinD; 09-14-2007 at 04:02 AM.

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    Bella's Personal Maid Moulting elfhome's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    I know humans and many other critters rely on bacteria to digest food. Antibiotics kill off many of these needed bacteriums and that can cause digestive issues. It could be the population in their guts were so decimated it's taking a long time to build back up fully.

    Article
    The vertebrate gastrointestinal tract is populated by bacteria and, in some species, protozoa and fungi that can convert dietary and endogenous substrates into absorbable nutrients. Because of a neutral pH and longer digesta retention time, the largest bacterial populations are found in the hindgut or large intestine of mammals, birds, reptiles, and adult amphibians and in the foregut of a few mammals and at least one species of bird. Bacteria ferment carbohydrates into short-chain fatty acids (SCFA), convert dietary and endogenous nitrogenous compounds into ammonia and microbial protein, and synthesize B vitamins.
    In Humans
    Bacteria are indispensable for food digestion. In a
    simplified view, food is degraded in the stomach by
    acids, then the bile destroys fats, and bacteria in
    the intestines degrade large biomolecules further into
    smaller ones that can pass the intestinal surface.
    Bacteria produce certain enzymes that can degrade
    biomolecules that higher organisms don't produce.
    Last edited by elfhome; 09-14-2007 at 05:25 AM.

  17. #17
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Yup. We kill 'em off and then we need to get 'em back in there.

    I love your scientific bent, Katie. I read most of your entries here on the forum just for the science of it!

    Robin

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    Bella's Personal Maid Moulting elfhome's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Quote Originally Posted by RobinD View Post
    I love your scientific bent, Katie. I read most of your entries here on the forum just for the science of it!
    Robin
    Wow, that is so cool! If you want a nice forum that has a fairly scientific/historical bent that pretty much requires you to have reliable cites if you even want to think of debating try the snopes.com forums.

    Yeah, you have your share of idiots and sometimes debates can get flaming hot but most of the members are fairly smart; you need to be able to cite your sources if you want respect. And sometimes members can really rip apart your argument but they do it intelligently, and if you use a logical fallacy someone will inevitably point it out.

    It's the only forum I hang out on besides this one and I love scientific debates so that is why I tend to cite articles to back up arguments, though sometimes I forget (shame on me!). I also have to edit my posts a lot because I use terms like YOMANK (You Own Me a New Keyboard).

    I go to an art school but love science of pretty much all types, so to keep the pathways in my brain from dying off from disuse I try to wade knee-deep into debates whenever I can.

  19. #19
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Could it be that a geometric design or a finely-crafted argument is the same sense but is expressed in a different modality. (I don't have the words right, but I hope you get my gist).

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    Bella's Personal Maid Moulting elfhome's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Robin,
    Yes, I believe I understand what you are trying to say. And there is are similarities between the two. It is just that art seems to be primarily a product of the right side of the brain and can actually be hindered by the left side if it is dominant. Logic and science is more a product of the left side. Yes, some art can also be very analytical in form.

    I am thinking of P. Mondrian's work which is calculated to garner certain responses from the viewed based on color and location. Other art forms like architecture and 3D can incorporate a lot of mathematical work. But a nice even mix of left/right brain strength is hard to find.

    It is why there is such a need for medical illustrators. It is very hard to find a medically-trained artist or an artist who is good with biology and other sciences and can handle anatomy classes.
    Last edited by elfhome; 09-14-2007 at 10:10 AM.

  21. #21
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    Well, this is just my opinion and I don't know you at all, but to me you feel like a mixture of left and right brain together. For me, it would be looking at a house situated on a landscape and feeling the rightness (or wrongness) of how it looks. Or me coming into Craig's house and feeling the geometry of the pine boards running along the floor, the walls and the ceiling. Wouldn't spatial geometry be a left-brained concept and the beauty that it creates a right-brained one? (I'm just thinking out loud, no knowledge on the subject)

  22. #22
    Bella's Personal Maid Moulting elfhome's Avatar
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    Re: poop with undigested seed

    This is getting really off topic. I'm going to PM you with my reply.

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