Help- breathing problems and a puzzle- updated 25/07

[pixibubbles]

ok, here's one for you all. sparks has been nder treatment for months and months, and the vet is running out of tests and ideas... so i;m going to spout out everything i think of and hope someone here canb help us x

Sparky is a 5 ish year old (99% sure) female lovebird. she is a black masked/blackfaced hybrid and was rescued by me about 4.5 years ago.

she is having breathing problems again.

i realise, looking back through my old posts, that this has been going on for over a year. in my original posts i was concerned because i could sometimes see her puffing, and could hear whistling after she had been flying hard.

now, over a year later, the wheezing is pretty much permenant, and there is clicking too. she has seen a number of different vets, had tonnes of tests, and taken lots of meds (mostly anti-biotics)

We know she had AGY, but that has cleared up (at least all the tests show it has). Her diet is a good seed mix (including seeds, dried fruit and veg), and in the last 6-8 months i've got her to take some pellets too. she gets lots of tidbits and treats (all healthy) from us.

she is still clicking and wheezing. she has had weeks and months where she is fine, but i dont see any improvement after months of antibtioics.

She;s never been the strongest flyer, and has never weighed more that 39 grams, but is only about 4 inches tall so its about right for her.

her breathing issues appear to have gotten worse since she has been in a collar for feather plucking (she was in a car acciddent with me and got hurt, and then started plucking her tailfeathers, and specifically destroying her blood feathers and obviously causing bleeding problems). since she;s in a collar shes not able to fly at all,... and when i took her out of it she WOULDNT fly, and then attacked blood feathers and got the collar back.

Now she makes loud noisey wheezing/clicking noises. She doesnt seem to be in distress (thank goodess) and is eating, playing, sleeping and pooping well. she still plays the same games with me, snuggles up for scritches and makes happy little frindy noises and mutters in my ear, and i am so scared of loosing her

i;m back at the vets on saturday morning, and last time we went he asked "what do you want me to do?"

well... i want him to make her better.

i;ve been told there is another guy who sees birds, but he's hours away, and a local vet basically told me that it would be a waste of time, coz my guy is the best, and she;s never heard of the other vet giving different opinions and advice

i look at my old posts, and realise that she is worse... and its gradual and slow... but definately worse than she was last year... and that really scares me, coz i love this little fid more than i know how to say.

i want my happy, healthy little bird back... that's really all i want... so please, if anyone is reading this, and has any ideas left at all, please please share them so i can suggest them to the vet on sat.

thanks xx
Helen

[BridgeyRoo]

Oh Helen...poor you and poor Sparks. My heart just aches for you guys I know how much you love Sparks and how you feel about being unable to fix this. Many hugs your way.

I'm wondering...when exactly did this breathing issue start? Is it possible that the collar caused damaged to her respiratory system? I have no idea if that could happen, but given all the factors and eliminations, and given that I think I recall you saying Sparks was more accident prone with the collar on, it occurred to me that maybe she took a good jarring and injured herself. I would assume that if it were an injury of that nature it would be getting better, not worse though. But I thought I would put it out there.

Also, here's my other thought. I would take Sparky to the other vet. My thought is that as long as Sparks is up for it, it can't hurt anything. Worse case scenario is that he reaffirms what you already know. Best case, he has something new to offer and has a bit better bedside manner I would be willing to take that chance if Tini were in the situation and were up for the trek. Go in expecting the worst (no other suggestions) but hoping for the best (new news) and maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised.

I wish I had something else to offer to you. For now, know that Tini and I are crossing everything we can that answers and good luck come your way - you are certainly due some. More hugs!

[Agnes]

Poor little Sparky. She's such a sweet girl, I hate that she's not well after all this time.

I like Bridget's advice. Maybe someone new can look at it differently. Good luck, Helen.

[Stephie]

Helen,

I would at the very least walk into your vet's office and tell him what you told us - print out this page and say to him that you are willing to do whatever it takes to heal little Sparks; that you know he's the best vet but that doesn't help Sparks if he's not willing to do all that he can to help you both. Tell him what you're willing to do, and see what he says.

Lay it all on the line, and ask him to help you lay out a treatment plan. If you aren't happy with his response then tell him even though he's the best, if the best is unwilling to help you figure out what's wrong with your fid, then he's not the best for you. you want someone that will listen to you, as Sparks' voice, and help you figure out a solution.

I wish you all the best, and i wish I could help you more!!!

[jokulhlaup]

Helen,

I would at the very least walk into your vet's office and tell him what you told us - print out this page and say to him that you are willing to do whatever it takes to heal little Sparks; that you know he's the best vet but that doesn't help Sparks if he's not willing to do all that he can to help you both. Tell him what you're willing to do, and see what he says.

Lay it all on the line, and ask him to help you lay out a treatment plan. If you aren't happy with his response then tell him even though he's the best, if the best is unwilling to help you figure out what's wrong with your fid, then he's not the best for you. you want someone that will listen to you, as Sparks' voice, and help you figure out a solution.

I wish you all the best, and i wish I could help you more!!!

good thoughts Stephanie...and i also agree with Bridget, it can't hurt to take sparks to the other vet if she's up to it, even if it might be a shot in the dark.

can birds get degenerative lung problems like humans do? like asthma, emphysema, or COPD?? i know that wouldn't be too great, but maybe it's something like that...

[tuesday]

sounds like she ended up with a upper respority infection , or apspratats and there is medications he can give her for that.. i would have him check her throughly blood test and all that ,, and see what comes out of the test.. good luck

[Shannon]

I would seek another opinion as well. When Diego was sick with his liver problems a few years ago I had to go to three separate vets in a month to find one that could diagnose and treat him properly. My challenge was finding one that could actually help, since the closest avian vet is 2 hours away, and I was a full-time student. I honestly think if I hadn't found the vet I had that he would have died. He was literally knocking on death's door. Even though it will be very inconvenient, I'd say go with 2nd, or even 3rd, 4th, 5th, etc., until you get this problem figured out.

Oh, I am also worried about all of the antibiotics she's been on. The body starts to build up an immunity to them, and it also weakens the immune system. My main concern would be that she's taken so many and has possibly become unresponsive to their effects.

[ellenant]

Get the second oppinion!
Sorry if I repeat myself...
was an X-ray taken?
Unluckily the bird is a bit small for an endoscope,
my thought would be maybe an obstruction somewhere
in the windpipe. Maybe due to trauma, maybe some
persistent fungal granuloma.
All good luck!!!!

[pixibubbles]

one last chance with my guy.
Maybe if i can make him understand what she means to me...
Failing that i realised i am in London in a couple of weeks. I know at least one avian vet there.

He doesnt want to xray her cause would have to knock her out... she will NOT hold still lol. He cant find infection either, although the inflamation and wheezing is obvious...

I've been doing some research and know 2 things we havent tried: steroids or anti-histemines.... could this be an allergy? it's been there for soooooo long... and maybe the collar is just worsening it as it means she is fairly immosbilised and flat to the floor most of the time. cant be right for her.

I;m going to ask the vet about a collar that has been designed and modified by people on here. its a soft one that extends around the neck instead of a cone type one.,... but the lovies who where it are able to perch and fly almost as normal. i've been scared to rely on it as I'm not convinced she wouldn't be able to reach her tail feathers, but i;m going to bite the bullet and try it this weekend. I've got some nasty tasting feather sop plucking spray, and i cant see any blood feathers at the moment (there are a couple with bent shafts, but they seem to have grown in and fluffed out... will ask about them tomorrow)

and i think i'm going to try and get her into a cage instead of the tank she's been in- am thinking better ventilation (even if i have to cover the bars with cotten so she cant itch on them). This option worries me though, as previously she managed to rip a blood feather in half minutes before i got in. if i had stayed for one last drink.... scarey thought.

thanks for all your thoughts and advice... and keep them coming!

[boomer girl]

I would take Sparks in for a second opinion but first I would really talk to the vet you have right now and let him know just how much getting Sparks better means to you. Sometimes when vets hear about how much you worry and care for your bird it makes them realize just how bad your bird needs their help. You know me and you share the sadness of knowing our birds are not well and I feel your pain Helen and it took boomers vet about a year to finally look at me and share in my worry for Boomer and ever since then she really takes the extra steps needed to try to help boomer. You need to feel comfortable knowing Sparks vet is doing everything possible to help her get well or take her to new doctor.

I wished you were in the states because they can take a tiny bit of blood from birds and test for so many things with just that tiny bit. I worry about fungus in Sparky coming back or that the AGY did some damage to her insides because I know fungus has damaged boomers insides. Fungus can break thru there digestive systems and get into other things that some fungal meds dont work on and maybe its fungus causing her breathing issues now.

HUGS to you Helen and big scritches to Sparks.

[pixibubbles]

thanks Dea x.
i dont think its fungal... to be honest and blunt, if it were fungus, i think she would have died long ago.

she's making the wheezing, and the huffing noises, but she's standing tall, screeching abuse and doesnt (thank god) seem distressed by it. biggest ujpset in her life is me not letting her steal my toast anymore lol

i was planning on doing the whole "this is my bird, my baby, i took on a 3rd job at uni to pay for her vet bills when i didnt even know if i was keeping her and she only had a 50:50 chance... now 4.5 years later she's more important to me than i can explain...." routine.

[Squeakers411]

First off, my heart aches for you and little sparks... ((((HUGS!!!)))) To you both for being so strong...
Secondly, I agree with everyone on the "Take her to another vet for a second opinion"You have nothing to lose (Okay... Money... but still!) but you might be able to gain something, if anything another option to take!
I would lay on that routine, and lay it on thickly Make sure to remind him (Even if he's one of the best) That you are willing to go to other vets for more opinions, and that you aren't relying just on him... Respectfully, though, of course
I wish you luck Helen, because honestly, I think its about time that whoever hands out the luck relizes that you deserve it!

[ellenant]

No, fungus does not have to be acutely deadly.
It can be walled off by the body and grow VERY slowly.
If your birds immune system is strong enough,
it can keep fungal growth in check.
And in your case, I really would like to do an X-ray,
maybe with additional support with intubation
or even airsac intubation and supported breathing
during anesthesia.
But thats your vets call.
(and I was here at a university clinic with all the fancy equipment)

This really sounds like an obstruction of some kind,
and after it is getting worse, this thing is growing.
I cant tell you what it is...
maybe it is allergic, maybe it is a very slow growing fungal
granuloma, maybe it is an old trauma that caused some
scarring that is affecting breathing somehow.
Did the blood tests give ANY conclusions?
Elevated heterophils?
Elevated eosinophils (allergy)?
I really would go to another vet and get a second oppinion.

Good luck!

[pixibubbles]

I know what i want... i want full blood panals, swabs, x-rays, scacns ansd EVERYTHING

i want to try every drug there is, and fight this every way i can, but even the avian vets here arent up to much.

i'll let you know all know how it goes today- although i did find a vets near here who supply harrisons... so i will probablyh be calling them later to see if they have an avian guy (i'm guesisng if you bother tio stock harrisons... )

[Jaspa]

Helen, I've just noticed you're in the UK. There is an avian vet that has a medical column in Parrots Magazine called Chris Hall who has been practising for some 10 years (15 Templesheen Road, Sheen, London - tel 0208 876 9696). There is also another guy called Alan Jones. I dont know if hes still in practice but hes really experienced from what Ive read and I recall hes in London too - I used to get the magazine in the 1990s when I lived in London and he had a column then. I agree with the others in getting opinions until you're satisfied that they're on to it. And these guys might be worthwhile if you can get there. All the best.

[boomer girl]

Aspergillus gets into their airsacs, lungs and other places in the body and is very hard to diganose. Even AGY is hard to diagonose but your vet found it helen so he must be good to find it in Sparky. I know you know when she gets the yeast growing in her because of the signs she gives to you so this may just be differant now because you would definitely know if her yeast grew back. Boomer had AGY, it or Candida or something else damaged his crop and it now will forever get yeast due to it has thickened so I need to watch his diet forever but I can see when he is not well just like I know you see when Sparks isnt well. Booms vet was able to XRay without putting him under because of the dangers and this was when she finally was able to find something was wrong with him. They gave him a injection to calm him but not to put him to sleep and I know he squirmed and fought with them for the Xray because his feathers in his neck were pulled out and his wing was sore afterwards but they were able to get 3 great shots of his insides. They showed us things we didnt want to see but it least now we sort of know what is wrong with him. I think you need to call around and see if any vet has done Xrays without putting Sparks to sleep and have them do it because they just may show you something and then you can treat for it. Many things dont show up on blood work, boomer has had tons of bloodwork and it never really showed anything but the Xrays always showed us something. They dont cost all that much, cheaper then a full blood panel and it will hopefully show you something inside of Sparky. Aspergillus grows slow so it still could be this, the Diflucan you gave to her would keep it under control but I dont think it would kill the growths inside of her. I hope it isnt fungal but it sure has signs of it being Aspergillus or the AGY damaged things inside of her. I hope not but I know it did damage boomer and Sparks had the yeast just like boomer. I really recommend out of everything a set of Xrays on Sparky as a start, it isnt the easiest decison to make and I was a wreck knowing what they were doing to Boomer when he had his Xrays but afterwards it was good to know they saw something inside of him because now I know, you dont now and Xrays are one of the first things they usually do. It would find obstructions, tumors and lots of other things.

[pixibubbles]

hi... i;m back!

i;m much happier this time. i went in with the "this is my baby and i;m scared i'll lose her" and he was really understanding and spent a lot of time with us. Swabs and poops are clear again, and her chest and air sacs are also clear. We talked about x-rays but he is still worried about her safety in doing them, and really doesnt think we would learn anything from them.

i got a biology lesson in their resp system again, and how their airsacs work and the job they are designed to do. She is moving air well, and eating and playing well, and the vet is pleased with her. he actually said its the best condition he has seen her in since before the accident. i guess because i am with her all the time, and the improvements so gradual, i dont see them.

he cleaned out her nares for her, and (knock please, please God dont let me jinx this) she is breathing much better... and i havent heard her wheezing since. So please all cross your fringers and pray. i really stressed her out earlier getting the new collar on, and she was fine... breathing hard... i could see her chest moving, but couldnt hear anything.

we talked about different types of collars, and getting her into a cage instead of the tank, and getting her flying and getting her back to a normal birdie life.

For now i am happy with what the vet said. lets see how she goes from here and whether the nicely cleaned nose helps she's sitting in her cage making little grindy noises (i love happy bird noises)

now the problem is her collar. i need to keep her from chewing her feathers... i tried the collar briana put on the lovie board, but she can reach her wing feathers in it, so i dont know if she can reach her tail yet so i am using the new e-collar as well as the other at the moment.

he says the infection a few months back combined with her immobilisation has effected her breathing... some of the muscle strength has been lost, and there is some loss of elasicity in the air-sacs from the infection.

he thinks she will be fine, and that if we can get her back flying she will go back to being my happy little sparks again. she hasnt got any blood feathers at the moment that he (or i) could find, but he thinks there is definately damage to some of the follicles, and they will never re-grow properly... but on the good side, she has a fairly good set in

for now i will happy... and Alex believes, having seen him a few times, that this guy really is the best. If i;m still not happy in a couple of weeks... well i am in London then, (thanks for the number Jaspa x) but i;m hoping she'll be all better x

[BridgeyRoo]

Helen - this is great news! So far, so wonderful! I (we) will keep fingers and feathers crossed that all is good to go now. Did he actually get anything out of her nares? I was wondering if there was a stubborn seed husk or something stuck up in there that was causing some of the problem.

So when can the collar come off then? I'm sure that will help with the breathing issues in the long run.

Oh good good! Many hugs and scritches!

[boomer girl]

I am happy for you and Sparks the visit with the docs went well and that he took the time to talk to you and really check her out. I think he is a keeper and if your happy with him then thats what counts. How did he clean out her nose? I am very curious about this because I always wondered how they would clean out noses. Thank goddness the nose cleaning has helped her and she is better

[pixibubbles]

i know it's great isnt it
no he didnt get any actual obstructions out... it was just a lot of congestion... he said it could have been caused by some dust irritating her... but most likely is the infection she had a while back.

he used a wet cotton bud to soften it up a bit, then he syringed it out... i cant give you many details because i couldnt watch this bit, and he had a nurse assist, so i couldnt really see in any case.

[Agnes]

That's good new and it's wonderful that she's able to breathe easier. I can imagine how much better that makes you both feel.

[pixibubbles]

thanks hun

my only probl;em is she HATES the newee collar design. i put her in it yesterday, and this morning she was a bit wobbly and fluffed up with green droppings. i take her out the nice new, unrestrictive collar and put her back in the awful cone one, and she's straight into her food pots.

this could be harder than we thought.

silly thing doesnt know what's good for her lol

[Jojo's zoo]

I just dont' know but I understand your fear and pain, all too well, and I will keep you in my thoughts and prayers.

[mighty mouse]

We're still (always) rooting for you and Sparks!

[Sun_angel00]

Yay I am glad to hear a good update for Sparks!