Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

[Tviokh]

...all extremely cruel, and many (with the exception of beak splitting) well accepted, "routine" and not frowned upon.

Declawing of cats, debarking of dogs, ear cropping, tail docking, devoicing of parrots, and beak splitting are all fairly 'routine' procedures that many people don't think twice about having done to their pets because it's "just the way it is".
Less commonly, vets will pull the teeth of dogs to "solve" a biting problem.

Beak splitting is done to "stop biting" and aggression in parrots; mainly male cockatoos.

Debarking dogs and devoicing parrots is used to eliminate "noise".

Declawing involves the amputation of the first joint of each toe of the cat. Declawing, even when done "right" is extremely painful for the cat. Owner laziness is the only real reason it happens; you may try to cover it up with "i want to save my couch!" or "she scratches me!", but overall, it's your own laziness for not teaching the cat how to properly use its claws.
My two declawed cats came to me that way. If they had been mine from kittens, they would both still have all of their claws.
If you don't want a pet with claws, don't get a cat.

Ear cropping and tail docking are nothing more than cosmetic and for the sake of "dog shows" and human eyes; ear cropping is extremely painful, as is tail docking.

www.livejournal.com/talkr...emid=62820

If you want procedure specific links:

Devoicing & beak splitting:
www.pacifier.com/~birdart...tions.html
In case that link doesn't work, the full text can be found here:
www.practical-pet-care.co...2606291131

Debarking:
www.newss.ksu.edu/WEB/New...00802.html
www.helpinganimals.com/h-mut-debark.html
This one addresses a lot: www.idausa.org/facts/cossurgery.html

Ear cropping & tail docking:
www.helpinganimals.com/h-mut-ear.html
www.briarleabouvier.com/ear_cropping.htm
www.bloomington.in.us/~st...blem2.html

The AAHA (American Animal Hosptial Association) does not recommend ear cropping or tail docking: www.aahanet.org/web/posit...e.html#ear

Declawing:
amby.com/cat_site/declaw.html
cats.about.com/cs/declawi...g/9_1.html

[Tviokh]

The only time I can see tail docking as being necessary are for some working breeds when they are in a working situation where a tail would be dangerous (as in, it would easily or frequently become caught or injured).
In those cases it shouldn't be a blanket breed docking, it should be case by case.

Other than that, there's no good reason for docking.

[kathy5]

i totally agree with everything but the declawing of cats. I had both of mine done and they were fine they were In door cats and no matter what we did to stop them from scratching they wouldn't and we tired everything. now mind you we just didn't go down to our vet and say go for it we did a lot of research about the different procedures. and looked In to this for a few months. we also talked to our vet some time befor we made up our minds to do anything.
we have 2 happy cats who are very well adujusted :n

[Tviokh]

kathy, I still don't think it's right or compassionate to have a cosmetic surgery (and that is what declawing is) done for personal reasons.
There is no health reason in existence to declaw a cat.

Declawing a cat, no matter how you try to justify it, is very painful and borderline cruelty.
It'd be like chopping your fingers off at the first joint.
Yes, it's "routine", but it's also extremely painful for the cat and there is NO good reason for it.

There are SO many other options:
Soft paws
Regular claw clipping
Furnature guards
...and if a cat has a wide variety of things to scratch on and has the behavior positively redirected (cats can't be trained like dogs, they're much more stubborn), it can be curbed.
NOTHING will stop a cat from scratchign 100%, and IMO, when you get a cat, you get everything that goes with it, including the claws.

Don't want to deal with claws? Don't get a cat. *shrug*

[lilangel5682]

I agree SO MUCH!! If you can't deal with the noise of a dog or bird, or with the claws of a cat, then DONT GET ONE!
It is painful for them! Just because we want to find a quick solution to what really are behavioural problems
It's gotta stop!

[Tviokh]

Even better you can try to figure out WHY the dog is barking, and correct appropriately.

Ours is allowed to bark at people who come into the yard that aren't us, and is allowed to bark when he hears someone trying to open the deck doors (hint: they're always locked).

He is not allowed to bark for any other reason, and gets a sharp "QUIET!" the instant the "woof" starts to come out of his mouth.
If that doesn't work, he gets a collar pop with a "QUIET", and if THAT doesn't work, he gets his prong collar put on and the next bark that comes out is met with a HARD correction (as in, hard enough to make him yelp). He only got the hard correction once. We were on a walk and he saw fit to bark at a passing dog that was having a spaz attack at us.
In no way do I want him thinking it's okay to bark at other dogs; other dogs may be poorly socialized and have lousy manners that cause them to bark incessantly at people who walk by, but MY dog is not going to be one of them.
That only had to happen once before he figured out that not listening to "QUIET" would result in an unplesent sensation.

He now responds to "QUIET" with or without a collar on...really the only time a 'woof' escapes him now is when he gets really into playing..and he once barked at me when I got up in the morning; I guess I looked awful and groggy and he didn't know who I was.

[JJSOLOMON]

My name is Jason, I had introduced myself quite a while back in the intro forum, but haven't been around much since, so here I am.

Anyway, I just wanted to weigh in on the declawing part of this debate, and quite a one-sided one it is. Now, nobody can claim to know quite how painful it may or may not be for a cat to be declawed because let's face it, we are not cats. For people to say that because they hear shrieks, the animal is in an immense amount of pain is a tad bit ridiculous. To this day, whenever I receive a tetenus shot in my pinky finger, my shrieks can be heard the world over! My point is this .. let us not get ahead of ourselves here.

Admittedly, I have never heard of the dog-devoicing procedure, so I really cannot comment on it. Now, as for me, I have a 15-month old domestic gray-haired tabby cat named Jynx, and quite the fiesty one she is. I got her as a gift for my mother on her birthday and she has become a great addition to our family. Our last cat grew to age 16 before she died back in 1996. As someone who is allergic to cats (and most pets, guess it is the dander), it wasn't the brightest move in the world, but it always felt like there was so much missing from this house. Anyway, much like our last cat, it was my mother's decision to have the cat declawed. And I can tell you that she has been fine since, she is extremely playful and as boisterous as ever, if not moreso.

For people to say that if you want to get a pet declawed, you should not have one is ridiculous and somewhat offensive. First of all, it is a personal decision to make, especially for those who elect to keep their cats as house pets. Of course, if you are the type of person who lets the pet out of the house, they must obviously keep their claws in order to survive, no question about it. But aside from the usual "ouch, she scratches" and "I don't want her scratching my furniture" arguments, there are other factors that each owner must consider as well. I say this knowing someone who had a cat and came home one day to find their beloved pet (who was perhaps a little too wild), laying in a pool of blood in their bedroom because the cat's claws became stuck in the carpet. Anything can happen, and everyone has a different reason for doing different things.

My point is this. My family had our cat declawed, and that was a personal decision for us to make. It's not exactly what I would dub as animal cruelty. Believe me, I have been waiting in the vet's office and have seen some horrific examples of stray animals being abused by people on the street. To those who say "don't get a pet, you shouldn't have one if that's what you want to have done," I say you're wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion. Again, I am only speaking of this issue as I do not know much about dog-devoicing or beak-splitting.

I do think this is a thoughtful debate to be haivng though. Just felt I had to toss in my two cents. Happy holidays to all.

[DizzyDezzy]

You can't devoce your children, break their teeth if they bite or chop of their fingers if they scratch, yet it's ok to do it to a dog or a cat, as they can't complain?
If your cat attacks you and scratches you, it may be because it's frightened or has some serious behavioral problems. You should try and aim at the cause of the problem, not solve it the 'easy' way by having the cats toes chopped off at the vet's office (yes, that's what declawing is).
Taking the time and making the effort of having the cat's claws properly trimmed and in good condition would stop it both from scratching somebody seriously and from getting the claws stuck in carpet and things like that.

[josie]

Thanks for posting this, necroangel.

I've long been actively opposing declawing and other forms of animal mutilation, but I had no idea about the beak splitting! How horrid!

Anyway, I thought you might like to add the following links to your anti-declawing arsenal. Here's one that contains a whole bunch of good links. (Warning! The first link has graphic photos of the surgery and its aftermath.)

declaw.lisaviolet.com/

This one is good, too:
www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html

We adopted an elderly cat who had been declawed by her original owner. I won't bore you with the details of how we came to adopt her, but I passionately oppose this ghastly mutilation of a poor cat. It can even cripple a cat for life. We rearranged our home so the poor declawed cat could get around well and up onto the furniture (she was unable to jump, but could walk just fine). She died peacefully this past summer at the age of 25 and enjoyed her kitty life right up to the end. But I often thought how much happier she would have been if only they hadn't declawed and crippled the poor thing!

Many years ago, an old friend of mine adopted a declawed cat whose owners got rid of her because she became a "biter" after being declawed. Well, gee, what did those people expect? Poor cat had no other means of defense.

Again, thanks for posting this thread.

[Squawk and Howl]

i totally agree with everything but the declawing of cats. I had both of mine done and they were fine they were In door cats and no matter what we did to stop them from scratching they wouldn't and we tired everything. now mind you we just didn't go down to our vet and say go for it we did a lot of research about the different procedures. and looked In to this for a few months. we also talked to our vet some time befor we made up our minds to do anything.
we have 2 happy cats who are very well adujusted :n

i completely disagree, for the same reason as many people agree with wing clipping. it prtects the animal.

we have a rescued cat (Flutie) that was abandoned by people after they moved. she had been declawed. what happens if your cats acciedentally get outside? they have no way to defend themselves or climb a tree.

Flutie had a huge gaping wound on her belly and still is afraid of people. (2 years later). my parents declaw their cats, too & i think it is cruel. to adapt a cat's pshysiology to protect a meterial possession is just vanity! (you should see my couch- ugh! but it is the cat's couch too- so they have stredded it. whatever. it's just a couch. i would much rather have an intact, healthy cat than a designer couch.

vets that are cat specialists & advocates never do this procedure. many times, it is painful & continues to be throughout their lives. all for the sake of some material goods? no way jose!

i'm surprised. we all know birds make noise here, but why don't we realize that cats scratch? they do that, it's natural & instinctive. you don't like it? don't get a cat!

[PhoenixK]

I sooooooo agree on how inhumane declawing is!!! I mean, vets in Europe won't do it because they understand that it's cruel.

And yeah, it is removing the whole first joint of a cat's fingers. It takes away their primary means of defense, and it makes them actually have to walk differently. And "indoor cats" sometimes get out by accident. I dont' think ANY cat would choose to be declawed.

When you accept an animal into your home, you accept everything about that animal. You can train that animal in humane ways to avoid negative behavior. There are so many alternatives to declawing -- plastic carpet runners, protective corners for your sofas/chairs, teaching your cat that you don't like it when he scratches. And most importantly, cutting your cat's nails! If people stay up to date on their obligation to trim their cats' nails, they would know that it reeeeeally makes them a lot less sharp.

I agree wholly that people who are willing to declaw their cats should not have cats. What's really appalling is the declawing and defanging of ferrets, both of which are entirely stupid and require major surgery. But back to the cats...

When I was in junior high, my two cats were both seven years old. For these seven years, we had to keep telling our mother that we did not want our cats declawed, and our mother continually PROMISED that she would not declaw the cats. Then, when she picked me up from school one day, she mentioned that she had taken the cats to the vet. I knew that they had already gotten their shots, and some part of me just automatically realized that she had gotten them declawed. I remember crying a lot.

I went with her to pick up my cats. Both of them were sitting huddled together, seriously looking as miserable as I have ever seen them. They looked confused and sad, and they were obviously in pain. Their paws were still bloody. It was horrible. When we brought them home, my mother had not replaced the cat litter with newspaper (which you are supposed to do if you declaw your cats). Our older cat jumped in and then jumped right out because his paws were in pain. I don't think ANY pet owner should EVER intentionally inflict pain on their pets -- mutilate their pets -- for the sake of "convenience."

It's been eleven years, and I still can't forgive my mother.

[oihane]

*sigh* I don't know guys. I wouldn't ever do any of the ear/tail docking, devoicing, ear splitting, etc. Most of that is only done for fashion and no other reason, and I think that's plain wrong. Our 3 cats are declawed in the front though. My parents did make the decision, and I always felt bad because of it.

However, they are all happy, healthy cats. And I kind of see the safety issue in it, because they are all pretty rough with playing with each other, and they are probably safer without front claws. My aunt and uncle's cat scratched the other cat's eye before she was declawed. But, perhaps there wouldn't be an issue with the claws, who knows.

Dani, I do resent you saying that all owners of declawed cats think of their cats as "property". Yes, there are owners like that, but I love all my cats very very much, and I have never once thought of them as property. Yes, maybe we could've thought of different alternatives, it's just how we knew it to be done. My parents learned that way, and that's just how it was. I don't hate them for it, they never did it with any kind of sinister intentions. You may be mad at me for saying that I resented your comment, but that's just how I feel.

I agree with some of what JJSOLOMON said, that everyone here is attacking anyone who has done these things to a pet. Yeah, I don't like them either, but still, what is done is done. I would never get a dog's ears/tail docked, or get it devoiced or get my birds beak split or anything, and I don't know if I would get a cat declawed, but I probably wouldn't. Yes, there are more alternatives now (they're more known and marketed now at any rate), and I agree with JJSOLOMON that we should be trying to offer alternatives for these things instead of saying that whoever does it should be shot.

Besides, he/she was just offering their opinion, and everyone attacked him/her. JJSOLOMON was right in that attacking makes people afraid to post. Hell, I'm afraid of posting this cause I'm afraid everyone who reads this will hate me forever because my cats are declawed.

I guess maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying that all that other stuff is cruel but yet having declawed cats, but that's just the way it happened. Perhaps if I could travel back in time I would change it. But the fact remains that they are, but I still try to make their lives as happy and healthy as possible, cause I love them all like they were my children.

I'm sorry if anyone took offense to what I just said, I wasn't trying to be defensive, although it was difficult when everyone was on the offensive.

[Muse]

Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse, but it's a horse I feel needs at least one more lashing.

I won't touch on beak splitting or devoicing, as in all my studies in animal sciences, I have yet to run into any "pros". Declawing, I have known cats that needed the proceedure done due to the direction the claws were growing (into the pads and toes), but I"m of the mind of if you don't want to work with a cat to stop scratching your furniture (I've owned 5 cats in my lifetime, and we've only had minimal furniture damage), then perhaps you shouldn't get a cat.

My first point on dogs is this. NATURE didn't create these dogs. MAN created them. Man created the breeds of dog we see today, and man didn't create a perfect creature, so alterations are made for purposes.

Ear cropping has it's purpose. If you have a dog that's a family pet who goes for walks and hangs around the house with you, that purpose is lost and the procedure becomes cosmetic and unnecessary. However some breeds of working dogs who actually work, ear cropping is done to avoid injury to the sensitive floppy ears. I've seen ear injuries. I've dealt with the shredded ear of a hunting dog. It's *not* pretty.

Docking is a different story. I think to say I'm "pro-docking" is a bit extreem, but I'm definately not againced it.

When I spent time working at a vet office, we had an absurd amount of commonly docked breeds (and some that arn't docked as the standard) with natural tails come in with tail injuries. They didn't injure their tails by working on the field, or in some freak accident. Their tails were injured by something loosely refered to as "Happy Tail Syndrom" or "Crate Tail Syndrom".

Dobermans, Rotties and Bulldogs were the more common ones with this type of injury. We also saw Mastiff breeds, Dalmatians, Retrievers (Labrador most commonly), Shepherds, and a wide variety of mutts. Some were as minor as being treated for a small wound. Others had a small wound that wouldn't heal and just kept getting worse. Some required emergency amputations for infection that had set in, small fractures, or large breaks.

These dogs all injured their tails by wagging them. When the dogs were happy, the tail goes insane, and it hits coffee tables, doors, walls, furniture, people, and whatever else happens to be in the way.

HERE is a story of just such a thing happening to a retriever.

Some may have poor intentions when it comes to tail docking, but I feel it serves an important purpose. We can't stop a dog from wagging it's tail, but we can prevent later injuries in dogs prone to tail injuries (such as dobermans, rotties, bulldogs and mastiff breeds, who tend to have weak tails prone to breakage, or even who suffer from Limber Tail).

I don't intend to turn anybody on to tail docking. If you don't want to have your puppy done, all the more power to you! I just hope the purpose it does serve can be seen and that it's not viewed as something malicious done to dogs.

[MamaMichelsBabies]

Yeah I know this subject has been poked to death, but I feel the need to add my lil 2 cents worth. I had a cat a few years back, when he was young I had to have a "partial" declaw done on the poor critter. He had been born with 10 toes on each front foot, 5 of the 10 did not re tract, so he was constantly running around with half his claws out. I hadn't planned on getting him de clawed at all, you never know if the slick things are going to get out and taking their claws away is taking away a natural defense for them. With all the stray cats in the world (pardon the example) it's like going to a gun fight with a bow and arrow, they can't defend themselves. I decided I had to do it one day when my hubby, then boyfriend called me freaking out the the cat was bleeding to death and he didn't know from where. I rushed home to find Mike laying in hubbys lap almost to weak to move, we rushed him to the vets to find out that while he had been playing he got one of the extra claws caught on the carpeting and when it yanked out it yanked the whole thing going all the way inside which then ripped open a vein in his foot. We got VERY lucky, he didn't bleed to death as cats are bleeders and will bleed to death easily. We immediatly got him partially declawed, leaving all retractable nails, only taking those that didn't move in.
I only repeat this story because I know that in many areas they are trying to ban declawing all togather, which I fully support, but in many cases, the zealous want it banned no matter what. There are extreme reasons that it is needed and in some cases like Mikes, potentially fatal if you don't, who knows what might have happened the next time he would have yanked one out, what if hubby hadn't have been home, etc.

Beak splitting though!! UGH! WHat is WRONG with people???? And what kind of demented mind did the person have to come up with that idea!?! I couldn't imagine ever, thinking of way to stop a too from attacking another too, probably mate, and thinking "Hey I'll rip his face apart, so he can't bite, great idea!" Wtf???? I'd never seen it before this thread, and if I ever did in person, I'd probably be arrested for some rash action, that's insane. And sick. THe the vets that do it ought to have their fingers broke so THEY can't hurt anything anymore.

[Raine]

I do agree with some of what you are all saying, but i also have a lot to dissagree with. The first this is "cats cannot be trained like dogs" Ah, but they can. Both of my catscan site and stay on command and are declawed. The reason for this is that both of our cats have hurt themselves with their claws. One of them got caught on a carpet and almost ripped it right out. They only time they used them was to fight with each other, and as a result, when they went in to be fixed the claws went with. This wasn't a sort of punichment to them, but more of a safty percation. You clipped the wings of a bird so that they don't fly out a window, we declawed the cats so that theyt would hurt themselves again or hurt each other. And as got the pain, i'm sure it hurts much less to have them sugicly removed then having them ripped out. The durgs that they put them on reduce the pain so that they barly even know what's going on! I had hip sugery 4 times and i can tell you it was really bad, and i still have to go in for more, but i can tell you now, i'd much rather be in the state i'm in now then what i was 4 years ago. It's the same with your cat. Rip them out or sergicly remove them? Tail docking and ear cropping are the same, all put into place years ago to stop dogs from being hurt during a hunt. Most puppies that will have their tail cropped are cropped at 5 weeks old and is compleatly humain, it's not like they take out the scissors and do it on the spot! most dogs do look nice with long tails, but i'd rather have a dog with a cropped tail then one who ripped his own tail off! The other part i agree with, it declawing and teething dogs (i've seen it) and devoicing various animals. These are things that they do naturally and can be avoided, where as there are things that just happen. Dogs need their teeth (obviously!) and their claws to be able to move and interact in everyday life. I've trained my naughbors dog not to bark in a matter of 2 days, there is no reason to take awat somthing so close to them as their voice. There are things that we do to our cats and dogs for their well being, but there is a line. Just my oppinion Raine

[Keepers Exotic Pets]

Hm. Interesting topic. There have been many good points made but unfortunately, as it's been pointed out, it's hard to find them amidst all the people screaming for blood. Now, my brother has a pitbull and we never got her ears cropped or tail docked as is required to show them, but we never had any reason to since she was simply a pet.

Our cats, on the other hand, have always been declawed. Not our barn cats, but the ones that we kept inside their whole lives. Part of my mom's reason behind it was to protect her furniture, yes, but there was also the problem of the cats being too agressive in playing with each other and very young kids. Never have we had a problem with the cats' feet being tender afterwards, and once the anesthesia from the surgery wore off they were all up and running again. My dad's two cats, on the other hand, were not declawed, only spayed. It took a lot longer for them to get over that surgery than any of my mom's cats with being declawed.

Will I get my own cat declawed? Probably not, but I also don't have the same circumstances my mom did. There are more alternatives now than there were back then. At least, more that are being marketed.

So really what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be so quick to judge, and judge so harshly. Everyone has their own system of beliefs.

[nightlady]

Just wanted to share my story for everyone to "consider" while deciding on whether or not to go through with declawing.

We adopted a 17 month old male cat a few years ago from a shelter. He happened to be declawed.

These cats sometimes come with a previous owner history, and he was one of them.

His family turned him over to the shelter at 5 months old because they had just gotten him declawed and he "turned mean". They had no idea what was involved with a declawing surgery previously. I think they loved him, they were just ignorant.

They included the vet's report and all of his paperwork when they dropped him off at the shelter. In the vet's report it said, and i quote, "he has minor injuries that have been cleaned and disinfected to his nose and mouth due to the thrashing around in his recovery cage". Thrashing around? Yeah, doesn't sound painful at all. This same report claimed "the surgery went very well, good reaction to the anesthesia, we expect a quick recovery". Sounds pretty freaking painful for a surgery that went well.

Either way, the family claimed this surgery "ruined" him and the shelter even considered putting him to sleep because he was so vicious. They told me he was not adoptable. After a whole lot of red tape cutting, we managed to adopt him. At the very least i wanted to foster him to see what we could do to help save him. He had been in the shelter for over a year.

Never in a million years could i have expected how vicious he was. He wasn't the spazz type at all. It was very predatory with slow, stalking movements. He bit hard and often, taking literally chunks of skin and he didn't even have the good sense to run afterwards. He just stalked away. My vet suspected he would need to be put down. We had to sleep with our doors closed or he would attack us in our sleep. After almost a year i was losing hope like no other. He bit my daughter badly on her face (he was on the counter and she walked by) and the school was threatening me in a wicked kind of way. Understandably.

To help ease the loss, we reserved a kitten at the local shelter (they were too young to go home yet). However the day came to put our biter- Boots - to sleep and i couldn't do it. So i rescheduled that appointment - and canceled it again. The shelter would take him back but they were having him put down as well. So, i figured i was familiar to him and he'd atleast me there instead of strangers. The day came for the kitten to come home but we still had this lion of a cat and i was scared to death for the kitten. So we were very careful and kept them separated. Boots was so interested in this kitten, it was amazing. One day he hopped right up on my lap (a first for Boots!) to see the kitten, promptly licked him and jumped down. In the end, that kitten saved his life. They became the best of friends and i think him observing us with the kitten helped him warm up to us.

To this day, he's tempermental but friendly. I wouldn't trust him to never bite again and the vet always harnesses him but it's been years since he's bitten anyone. It fortunately turned out to be a happy ending.


To me the biggest injustice of this all was that his first family were so uninformed. They should have researched and at the very least been informed by the vet of what's involved in a declawing surgery. It cost this cat his family, and nearly cost him his life as well.

I post this only to share my experience that may help someone else in the future. It's obviously not the "norm" but it is obviously a risk. One that i would never take myself.

[Wysteria Peacock]

I don't want to stir up a can of worms here, but what exactly is beak splitting? I've heard of everything else. If someone could explain it, or send me a link or something it would be greatly appriciated. Thanks!

[notredamebird]

My understanding is also that usually breeders are the ones who order beak splitting. Male cockatoos are most commonly abused this way because a certain percentage of them will brutalize/kill their mates.

Of course, there is no reason except profit to do such a thing. One could simply refuse to breed overly aggressive males. Or if it is very persistent problem, maybe the breeding conditions need to change. If it is a really serious problem, perhaps people should stop breeding the species entirely. Large parrots do not ordinarily kill each other in the wild. The males are not so frustrated, and the female can get away if her mate actually did wig out that badly. The problem is captivity and most of all, enclosures.

Beak splitting is all about getting a birds incompatible with each other or with captivity to breed. Very nasty business, I think.

[silverfox]

l realize that alot of people are against declawing cats (l'm also against it, ) but do you know that there is also another procedure that they perform on cats paws? it is called Tendonectomy.
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store....ndonectomy.php
they claim it is alot less painful for the cat. what they do is they leave the claws in and they cut the tendons in the cats paw so they can't extend their claws anymore. and the owner's will need to give their cats regular nail trimming since they will continue to grow in a circular pattern and would cause great discomfort to the cat.
in my opinion l think it is just plain cruel, imagine if you couldn't stretch your fingers.

[Skittles]

This is an old thread .. and it's been a WHILE since someone posted...

But I thought I'd add my 2cents in here:


In my opinion:

Tail docking and ear cropping: POINTLESS if you want that breed (doberman, rottweiler, boxer etc...) as a pet. If you are planning on doing some serious showing with this dog, only THEN can I understand where doing docking and cropping would be "reasonable" to meet show criteria.
I recently got a boxer... he came with his tail cropped. I did not request it nor would I have asked to have it done.. It's just THAT is what people do to boxers Luckily he has floppy ears and they're not cropped

I saw someone previously had mentioned they think showing animals is cruel and the owner is stupid for doing it. Quite frankly, it's the same as us humans modeling. Except the animal isn't in control. I think you should do some research on show animals and really look into how they're kept. Most of them are spoiled rotten animals that aren't kenneled. They're exercised regularily to keep in peak condition and fed the best foods to keep their immune system up, coats shiney and their teeth/gums clean.


Declawing: my mum has 3 cats, and they are all declawed... why? Because they're all indoor cats. Squishy, whome she adopted, came declawed. But the other to, Nermal and my cat Rizzo, she had done. I guess it was a personal choice.
And they both weren't in pain, I can vouch for it as the cats were running around a day after having it done.
I've also noticed, that depending on where you live, views and opinions on declawing vary.
EX:
Ontario - MOST cat owners will have their cats declawed if they are indoor.
British Columbia - MOST cat owners with indoor or outdoor cats, have NOT declawed their cats.

Horses have their tails docked if they are working horses... yes.. it continues on from the past when a draft horse would have his tail docked. Now I am 100% sure it's for looks.. wait.. of course it is...

Why the views are so different is a mystery to me...

Devoicing: Is CRUEL and uncalled for. My birds make noises, and yell at the top of their lungs, but i would never dream of removing their music. That's cruel.

An ex of mine, his mum's Jack Russell Terrier was devoiced. This dog would bark if he was eating, bark when drinking (both those times led to him choking), he would bark when in the car, outside, wake himself up barking while sleeping etc etc...
His vet had no idea what would cause this and recommended a bark controller. Nope, dog STILL barked. As a last resort, they devoiced him.. and I say LAST RESORT with full honesty.. His mum didn't want to do it.. but she also didn't want to get rid of the dog because of his barking.

Well.. needless to say... the dog stopped barking.. but only because they couldn't hear him. 2 years later, the dog has tried to bark so much, after a vet trip, it was determined he had scarred his vocal cord area so much, he could bark again. It just sounds... strangled..

I know a few m embers mentioned circumsizing... that is in my opinion.. and entirely different story...
People do it because of their religion. In my brother's case.. he had it done 2 years ago (he was 16 at the time) he was constantly having infections down there and his doctor recommended for his health, to be circumsized.



I think this is a great thread... I'm glad to see everyone's opinions

[Katana]

My opinions on this... honestly, I don't see most of this as bad.

Beak Splitting -bad -there's no way around this -that is basically giving the animal an injury that makes it too painful to bite down.

================
Declawing (including dewclaw removal), debarking, cropping and docking, I have no problem with.

Docking and dewclaws are removed on puppies at 3 days of age. Their bones are not fully formed and do not all quite 'connect' yet, their nervous system is also not quite developed, so they are not quite yet privy to all sensations. As soon as the puppies are placed back with the mother, they are silent.
Many breeds of dogs that get their tails docked have very thick, powerful tails at the base, which end in very fine, whippy bones, covered by very fine, short hair. It's common for them to wag the tail against a hard surface, breaking the tail. Or for them to get them accidently shut in a door.

Dewclaws are an 'extra' claw on the outside of the paw/leg. They are very commonly removed. The reason I get them removed from the puppies (my parents bred, I encouraged them to have them removed) is that they are very prone to getting hung up on things. Only one of my dogs has dewclaws (as the other dog's were removed) and he has already gone through the painful experience of having his catch on something and be ripped off. Thankfully it was only the nail -had it been the whole toe, he would have been in much more pain.

Declawing, and debarking.
The way I see it -if you have exhausted many methods of training, and you can't come up with a better solution (or if you have to make one in a hurry), and if the bad barking, or property destruction continues, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Some dogs will not stop barking -it's self rewarding for them, they just keep barking and barking and barking. And when it comes to the point that it is either debark the dog, or get rid of it (or move), I think that debarking is completely fine. Same with cats and declawing. I'm sorry -but some cats will NOT stop sharpening their claws on no-no objects, no matter how many alternatives you supply (note- only for indoor only cats -cats need their claws if they are outside).
Btw- I have seen declawed cats climb trees and hunt -it's not like it's the 'end of the world' for then -they're pretty smart.

Ear Cropping -If done properly, there is no problem with this. Especially for dogs in the show ring. MOST people don't even bother with this, as it is a long process of taping up the ears to get the cartilige to set before the ears will stand on their own. The majority of dogs getting their ears cropped are show dogs, and need this as a requirement for the ring.
There is usually little to no pain associated with cropping -I have never seen a miserable ear-cropped puppy. I've only seen them falling asleep as their owner changes their bandages.
Ear cropping does have a benefit, too, believe it or not. It staves off ear infections (by providing air circulation) that are all to easy to get with flop eared dogs. Look at it this way -wolves don't have floppy ears.


So, basically, yeah, the only thing I have a problem with here is beak splitting.

[sarahmom22]

I look at this topic this way:
I feed my animals human-grade food, because that is what I eat.
My animals sleep on comfortable beds, because that is what I sleep on.
If there is a procedure I wouldn't want done to me, I DO NOT have it done to my animals.
WHY? Because I love them.

I would NOT want my finger tips removed.
I would NOT want my voice box removed.
I would NOT want my jaw split in half.
I would NOT want my ears "carved" to look a certain way.
I would NOT want the base of my spine "trimmed" even if it was simply cartilage as an infant.

As far as declawing...I have 2 cats, a Siamese and a Ragdoll. They both have their claws, and guess what? My furniture is in just FINE condition. Why? Because I've trained them to claw where it's appropriate, on their scratching post. I also keep their nails trimmed (easy to do) and in the beginning I used "Soft Claws" to help till they learned to claw appropriately. I also used the "tinfoil on the furniture" method to keep them off the couch till they learned. There are ways to train cats that WORK, if only people weren't too LAZY to try.

The ONLY exception to this IMO is dewclaw removal when a puppy is only a few days old..why? because I've seen many that have been ripped/torn off when the dog is older, which is much more painful for the dog than it is to simply remove them when they are tiny pups...because they are simply hanging by a thin membrane of skin when they are tiny, as opposed to thicker skin when they are older, and the hanging dew's dont serve a purpose. Also, I've seen them get knicked/clipped off by other groomers as well accidently, and they're really not that safe for the dog to have.

[TreePilotIndie]

Well...Ear cropping/tail docking were created for a reason for dogs.

When they were first bred, to avoid the problems that may occur from the reasons they were bred.

As an example, Jack Russell Terriers who hunt, or do the jobs they were bred for, usually have their tail docked because it was helpful in pulling them out of holes.

In a way, I think it depends.
If you have a dog that does what it was bred for, tail docking and ear cropping may be a necessity.

I just think devoicing is terrible. My old piano teacher got a cocker spaniel from a rescue whose past owners had devoiced her. She was a sweet little thing.

[Beeks]

Skittles, I am with you an the removal of vocal cords in some extreme cases. My back yard neighbors had a pit bull that NEVER shut up. We had one whole summer we did not spend more than the time it took to water and mow in our back yard due to his insesent barking. It started at dawn and ended at dusk with no more than maybe 10 minute breaks, where I am assuming he must have napped from exhaustion.

Like you, I would have PAID for the surgery myself, but usually, it is not a matter of money in these cases, but a matter of courtesy. He was in a kennel on the back fence line where they could easily ignore the noise as their main living areas were to fhe front of the house. Pleas went unheeded.

The day came, when he got out of his kennel and somehow into our back yard. One of my dogs lost an ear before I could get them all inside and out of harms way. I called the authorities and they came and picked him up. Pits are illegal where I live, but you are given a "get out of jail free" card for the first offence as long as you relocate the dog or allow it to be put down. I am assuming, since he never reappeared, that they did one of the two.