Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

[Sadah]

OK, I'm new on this board too and thought it was great until coming to this thread.
If all you people HONESTLY believe that all this stuff is cruel (granted, a few are), and want your pets to live wonderful happy lives, then maybe you should just turn them loose. Birds would not "choose" to live in cages, for even a few minutes if given the chance to be free.

We DO do things to our children, like DISAPLINE, that they don't like, but we do it to make them be better citasans to our homes, communities, and world.

Did ever stop to consider how many animals are already put down in this country (US) anyway. MILLIONS!!! You now want to ad to this already rising # by outlawing practices that may make an animal easy to live with???

Sorry, some of you people are just Waaaay out there. Many of you are jumping to conclusions about things you know NOTHING about.

I went to collage 20 years ago to become a certified veterinary technician. I still am one. Things have changed a LOT in those years. Pain medications that were not given or not safe enough to be given to small animals are now routinly used. I now work as an instrucoter for vet tech students at a collage in northern IL. All of our declaw procedures are done with pain meds on board before surgery even begins. They are dosed for several days afterwards as well. Special kitty litter is used in place of the clay for the benefits of tender feet and cleanliness. Declawing a cat does NOT remove the joint. It removes the very first digit of the phalanges, which in cats, is retractable, and therefor, non weight bearing. They are NOT walking around on stubs. Personally, I would much rather see a person declaw their kitten than wait until they are an adult, its tougher on the adults. Kittens don't have as much bone/physical weight and their joints, ligaments, tendons are still loose enough that the claws come out easier and they adjust faster. I would rather see a cat declawed and remain in their household than being turned over to a shelter and euthanized because there are already a gazillion cats there waiting to be adopted. I also don't believe in no-kill shelters, as I think this creates the impression that 'oh well, we can't keep him anymore, but someone will eventually adopt him' attitude. Believe me, after living in shelter conditions for sometimes years, these animals rarely adjust to a family situation unless that person/people are totally dedicated to rehabilitating an animal that has most likely developed some form of nerosis.

Tail docking a dewclaw removals are done between 3-5 days of age, not any older. The dewclaw at this point does not even articulate with metacarpal bone adjacent to it. Tails are done at this time too, usually using an instrument called a carmalt that crushes. This reduces pain overall in that the nerves are crushed, as well as the vessels, so no excessive bleeding. They are then usually stitched or glued shut and puppy is returned to mother. They then usually suckle, which releases endorphines, the 'feel good' hormones that further reduces the stress and stimulates healing. Although uncomfortable, they forget very quickly once returned to their mother. To you who anthropromophize so much, do you remember your first babyhood vaccinations???? Nope. Same deal, child comes back to mother and mom gives some soothing device for baby to suckle on, bottle, pacifyer, breast, thumb and walah--endorphine release.

Lets face it. Our world is not a perfect place, but for those of you screaming for blood, do you have any clue how horrible of a person YOU sound like???? Are you the same people bombing labs and blowing up abortion clinics???? How sane does that sound. If you want others to listen to your views, first, educate yourself on HOW a procedure is done (properly) and talk to people that have first hand knowledge and why. There will always be bad veterinarians, just as there are bad human doctors, but like someone above stated, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Educate yourselves a little bit so you can speak without the emotional mob mentality that has been experienced here. I am shocked and appalled at what some of you have written.

Before anyone gets on my case about my own feelings, yes, I have one cat that is declawed. We 'aquired' her when my daughter was a tiny baby and she used her claws a lot. I didn't want to have to wait until my daughter had scares on her face and arms before I decided that kitty needed to be declawed (nor my young son). We have 2 other house cats that are not declawed. My declawed cat is let outside under supervision and can catch things and climb trees. We also have barn cats that are altered (so not to reproduce-gee, thats taking away an animal's 'right' too though isen't it??) All of our dogs are altered. We have horses that we ride, but I bet they'd rather hang out in the pasture grazing all day than to work for an hour or two with me.

We all 'force' unnatural cicumstances upon our pets because we want to live together with them. Birds are still wild creatures, completely undomesticated (except for chickens). Some people chose to accept them the way they are and understand their behaviour, some stick them in a cage and only let them out for short periods of time, some arrange their whole schedules around their birds, like they are human children. No one thing is right or wrong as long as the animal AND their human counterparts are happy. Thats the amazing thing about choice. Don't threaten or set out to lynch a person with views different than your own.

Just one more thought. How many of us have had animals get ill and have to be taken to the vet?? Given medications that are not 'natural'. In nature, these animals would either get over their disease, or die from it. Many wonderful new advancements have been made to keep our pets healthier, happier and live longer. Would you put a dog through cruciate repair surgery or let it heal, in its own unstable state, on its own?? Been through that repair myself and its VERY PAINFUL. Very slow recovery with lots of physical therapy to go through. I made the concious choice to have the repair done, as I wanted a more stable knee. A dog, for instance, does not have a say in the matter, nor whether they are vaccinated, neutered, etc.
Just some food for thought.

[Melza]

i trust you have NO pets jamie...

and turning pets lose in this day in age, after domestication, is as bad as killing them...

ages of declawing varies on the vet, and adult cats are often done by selfish humans, yes they remember, yes it hurts.

actually, after reading you have pets, and have declawed i just deem you as hypocritical. .

promote and stand up for declawing all you like, but you dont you all the facts either.

[Sadah]

Melza,
I know the facts better than you do. I've been working in the veterinary profession for over 20 years now and have been involoved in hundreds of declaw procedures. Yes, I know it hurts, but they get over it, just like they do any other type of surgical procedure. Also, I do NOT promote declawing, but as I said, I would rather see it done to let the cat live in it's home than be turned into a shelter or just turned loose as we all too often see. I grew up with cats, they always had a scratching post, mine have too, but there are just some cats that will still use them and I will ALWAYS put my children's safety above that of my animals if it comes down to that. This particular cat is now a 10 year old, dignified cats that still "claws" on things, sleeps at my feet every night and is a wonderful companion. You don't know me personally, so you don't know that I chose my profession because of my love for animals. I have taken in many 'throw aways' and its a good thing we live on a small farm, as there is always room for another barn cat or two. I teach my students compassion and empathy, not only for the pets, but the clients they will be working with. I teach them to educate people so fewer 'cosmetic' procedures will be done, although I don't think declawing is cosmetic. Some people just have it done without any thought as to the consequences of it, thats where the education part comes in. Sometimes people will try other things, such as the soft paws, they just don't know about the availability. You can't dump everyone who has surgeries done on their pets into the 'cruel pool' because YOU don't know all the facts either.

My point to turning animals loose is that so many of you have been saying we should accept animals as they are. If that is true, then we should let them live as God intended. NO surgical procedures, no neutering or spaying, no wingtrims, no cages, we should just let them run amuck. Thats what some of the extreme animal rights groups are advicating anyway, an some of you just play into their hands. Let them get one law past that makes it illegal to say, dock tails, and thats just the beginning . Pretty soon you won't have any say on how you animal is housed, what you feed it or if you are even allowed to own it. Just look at that bill that everyone is trying to stop. If that gets passed, you won't be able to own any animal that isen't indigenous to the USA. Lots of well meaning but naive people had the horse slaughter ban passed because its 'cruel'. Lets see, a state park in wisconsin called Wild Cat Mountain now has its own herd of domestic horses. Most of whom have never had to look further than a bucket for food and water and are now starving to death and being hit by cars. With our economic conditions here in the US, people have found they can no longer afford their horse. The market is flooded, very few are buying and its only the very high end that are moving. Sale barns have had to lock their gates so people don't just dump their horse there. Slaughter is no longer an option, so the poor horses are turned loose, left defenseless against weather, cars and the ability to find a suitable food source. There are so many things that are worse than a quick death by a captive bolt.

You need to look at the WHOLE picture. Don't call people hypocrites until you've walked in their shoes and seen what they've seen and actually read my post. I didn't advocate for turning animals loose, but that is what happens when someone finds all the options are closed for them. And yeah, I've had one cat have a front paw declaw when she was a kitten, so string me up. It was either that or I didn't take the kitten and the person was going to have the whole litter euthanized. Also, the drug they use is a combination of drugs including Ketamine, which is a dissociatvie drug, so no, they don't remember the procedure, they remember some discomfort afterwards, but a good vet is going to keep on top of that pain meds for days following surgery. Also, I was giving optimal times for doing the surgery. I know adult cats are done all the time too and yes, it is more difficult on them because the joints are tighter and they weigh more. Again, is this the perfect situation, NO.

Get out of your bubble and realize that not everyone has the same options and like I said before, I'd rather see a declawed cat than a dead one, in a pile with all the other dead cats, because someone gave it up for excessive clawing. There are people that live in apartment buildings that will allow cats, but only if they are declawed. There are elderly people who may have to be on cumadin (a blood thinner) and cannot risk being scratched. Should hemopheliacs not be allowed to own a declawed cat???????

Just because it isen't right for some of you doesn't mean you get to stand in judgement of what other people do. I am against cruelty, dog fighting, cock fighting, debarking unless under EXTREME circumstances and ear cropping. Obviously, some of these are outlawed practices and with good reason, but unless you have a completely outdated, uncompetant veterinarian, these other surgeries are done under general anesthesia and with pain medications before and after sugery. (except for dewclaws and docking).

Like I and someone before me stated, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Beeks]

I do not condone the altering of any animal part for esthetic purposes. But as stated above, when the option is worse then do what any responsible pet owner should do, and use what is available to remedy the problem rather than dump your problem in the lap of somebody else.

All my dogs and cats are spayed or neutered. They certainly suffered discomfort in the days that followed, but what is the alternative? They are not purebred and do not need to populate the world with more non-purebreds and since I do not wish to breed them, it is also a huge convenience to me, not to have to put diapers on my females and chase other irresponsible peoples strays off my property, nor do I have to worry about my boys becoming Houdinis's when they smell a female in heat.

I have a good friend who is a vet tech, her Pit Bull is neutered but has natural ears. Her Tom, is declawed and neutered. She left the Pits ears long, because there is no harm in not doing so. She declawed the cat, because he was a menace and the alternative was rehoming (or as I would think of it, passing the buck) or using what options available to make him livable. She chose the later.

Dew claws, if left on, can become quite painful to an adult dog if it is in the field much. Weeds, sticks and grasses can hook on them and tear the flesh. Better a little nip at 1 week of age, rather than a big rip at 2 years of age.

As long as official standards call for croppings and dockings there will be croppings and dockings. I may be hypocritical in that I like the look of a cropped ear, but I would not crop my dogs ears. For one thing, I don't need the hassle as it is a lengthy process and secondly, there are too many really bad ear cropping vets out there that can really mess things up and once the damage is done it is rarely fixable.

So, I guess if the alterations are purely esthetic I would pass, but do like the look. But if it will allow the animal to live peacefully in the same home for it's lifetime, then the initial discomfort pales in comparison to a lifetime of happy living.

[~Lori~]

I've left posts reflecting both sides of this topic. Much of this thread was fighting and insults. It is a hot topic. I'm locking this thread.