Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

[Keepers Exotic Pets]

Hm. Interesting topic. There have been many good points made but unfortunately, as it's been pointed out, it's hard to find them amidst all the people screaming for blood. Now, my brother has a pitbull and we never got her ears cropped or tail docked as is required to show them, but we never had any reason to since she was simply a pet.

Our cats, on the other hand, have always been declawed. Not our barn cats, but the ones that we kept inside their whole lives. Part of my mom's reason behind it was to protect her furniture, yes, but there was also the problem of the cats being too agressive in playing with each other and very young kids. Never have we had a problem with the cats' feet being tender afterwards, and once the anesthesia from the surgery wore off they were all up and running again. My dad's two cats, on the other hand, were not declawed, only spayed. It took a lot longer for them to get over that surgery than any of my mom's cats with being declawed.

Will I get my own cat declawed? Probably not, but I also don't have the same circumstances my mom did. There are more alternatives now than there were back then. At least, more that are being marketed.

So really what I'm saying is that people shouldn't be so quick to judge, and judge so harshly. Everyone has their own system of beliefs.

[nightlady]

Just wanted to share my story for everyone to "consider" while deciding on whether or not to go through with declawing.

We adopted a 17 month old male cat a few years ago from a shelter. He happened to be declawed.

These cats sometimes come with a previous owner history, and he was one of them.

His family turned him over to the shelter at 5 months old because they had just gotten him declawed and he "turned mean". They had no idea what was involved with a declawing surgery previously. I think they loved him, they were just ignorant.

They included the vet's report and all of his paperwork when they dropped him off at the shelter. In the vet's report it said, and i quote, "he has minor injuries that have been cleaned and disinfected to his nose and mouth due to the thrashing around in his recovery cage". Thrashing around? Yeah, doesn't sound painful at all. This same report claimed "the surgery went very well, good reaction to the anesthesia, we expect a quick recovery". Sounds pretty freaking painful for a surgery that went well.

Either way, the family claimed this surgery "ruined" him and the shelter even considered putting him to sleep because he was so vicious. They told me he was not adoptable. After a whole lot of red tape cutting, we managed to adopt him. At the very least i wanted to foster him to see what we could do to help save him. He had been in the shelter for over a year.

Never in a million years could i have expected how vicious he was. He wasn't the spazz type at all. It was very predatory with slow, stalking movements. He bit hard and often, taking literally chunks of skin and he didn't even have the good sense to run afterwards. He just stalked away. My vet suspected he would need to be put down. We had to sleep with our doors closed or he would attack us in our sleep. After almost a year i was losing hope like no other. He bit my daughter badly on her face (he was on the counter and she walked by) and the school was threatening me in a wicked kind of way. Understandably.

To help ease the loss, we reserved a kitten at the local shelter (they were too young to go home yet). However the day came to put our biter- Boots - to sleep and i couldn't do it. So i rescheduled that appointment - and canceled it again. The shelter would take him back but they were having him put down as well. So, i figured i was familiar to him and he'd atleast me there instead of strangers. The day came for the kitten to come home but we still had this lion of a cat and i was scared to death for the kitten. So we were very careful and kept them separated. Boots was so interested in this kitten, it was amazing. One day he hopped right up on my lap (a first for Boots!) to see the kitten, promptly licked him and jumped down. In the end, that kitten saved his life. They became the best of friends and i think him observing us with the kitten helped him warm up to us.

To this day, he's tempermental but friendly. I wouldn't trust him to never bite again and the vet always harnesses him but it's been years since he's bitten anyone. It fortunately turned out to be a happy ending.


To me the biggest injustice of this all was that his first family were so uninformed. They should have researched and at the very least been informed by the vet of what's involved in a declawing surgery. It cost this cat his family, and nearly cost him his life as well.

I post this only to share my experience that may help someone else in the future. It's obviously not the "norm" but it is obviously a risk. One that i would never take myself.

[Wysteria Peacock]

I don't want to stir up a can of worms here, but what exactly is beak splitting? I've heard of everything else. If someone could explain it, or send me a link or something it would be greatly appriciated. Thanks!

[notredamebird]

My understanding is also that usually breeders are the ones who order beak splitting. Male cockatoos are most commonly abused this way because a certain percentage of them will brutalize/kill their mates.

Of course, there is no reason except profit to do such a thing. One could simply refuse to breed overly aggressive males. Or if it is very persistent problem, maybe the breeding conditions need to change. If it is a really serious problem, perhaps people should stop breeding the species entirely. Large parrots do not ordinarily kill each other in the wild. The males are not so frustrated, and the female can get away if her mate actually did wig out that badly. The problem is captivity and most of all, enclosures.

Beak splitting is all about getting a birds incompatible with each other or with captivity to breed. Very nasty business, I think.

[silverfox]

l realize that alot of people are against declawing cats (l'm also against it, ) but do you know that there is also another procedure that they perform on cats paws? it is called Tendonectomy.
http://www.pet-dog-cat-supply-store....ndonectomy.php
they claim it is alot less painful for the cat. what they do is they leave the claws in and they cut the tendons in the cats paw so they can't extend their claws anymore. and the owner's will need to give their cats regular nail trimming since they will continue to grow in a circular pattern and would cause great discomfort to the cat.
in my opinion l think it is just plain cruel, imagine if you couldn't stretch your fingers.

[Skittles]

This is an old thread .. and it's been a WHILE since someone posted...

But I thought I'd add my 2cents in here:


In my opinion:

Tail docking and ear cropping: POINTLESS if you want that breed (doberman, rottweiler, boxer etc...) as a pet. If you are planning on doing some serious showing with this dog, only THEN can I understand where doing docking and cropping would be "reasonable" to meet show criteria.
I recently got a boxer... he came with his tail cropped. I did not request it nor would I have asked to have it done.. It's just THAT is what people do to boxers Luckily he has floppy ears and they're not cropped

I saw someone previously had mentioned they think showing animals is cruel and the owner is stupid for doing it. Quite frankly, it's the same as us humans modeling. Except the animal isn't in control. I think you should do some research on show animals and really look into how they're kept. Most of them are spoiled rotten animals that aren't kenneled. They're exercised regularily to keep in peak condition and fed the best foods to keep their immune system up, coats shiney and their teeth/gums clean.


Declawing: my mum has 3 cats, and they are all declawed... why? Because they're all indoor cats. Squishy, whome she adopted, came declawed. But the other to, Nermal and my cat Rizzo, she had done. I guess it was a personal choice.
And they both weren't in pain, I can vouch for it as the cats were running around a day after having it done.
I've also noticed, that depending on where you live, views and opinions on declawing vary.
EX:
Ontario - MOST cat owners will have their cats declawed if they are indoor.
British Columbia - MOST cat owners with indoor or outdoor cats, have NOT declawed their cats.

Horses have their tails docked if they are working horses... yes.. it continues on from the past when a draft horse would have his tail docked. Now I am 100% sure it's for looks.. wait.. of course it is...

Why the views are so different is a mystery to me...

Devoicing: Is CRUEL and uncalled for. My birds make noises, and yell at the top of their lungs, but i would never dream of removing their music. That's cruel.

An ex of mine, his mum's Jack Russell Terrier was devoiced. This dog would bark if he was eating, bark when drinking (both those times led to him choking), he would bark when in the car, outside, wake himself up barking while sleeping etc etc...
His vet had no idea what would cause this and recommended a bark controller. Nope, dog STILL barked. As a last resort, they devoiced him.. and I say LAST RESORT with full honesty.. His mum didn't want to do it.. but she also didn't want to get rid of the dog because of his barking.

Well.. needless to say... the dog stopped barking.. but only because they couldn't hear him. 2 years later, the dog has tried to bark so much, after a vet trip, it was determined he had scarred his vocal cord area so much, he could bark again. It just sounds... strangled..

I know a few m embers mentioned circumsizing... that is in my opinion.. and entirely different story...
People do it because of their religion. In my brother's case.. he had it done 2 years ago (he was 16 at the time) he was constantly having infections down there and his doctor recommended for his health, to be circumsized.



I think this is a great thread... I'm glad to see everyone's opinions

[Katana]

My opinions on this... honestly, I don't see most of this as bad.

Beak Splitting -bad -there's no way around this -that is basically giving the animal an injury that makes it too painful to bite down.

================
Declawing (including dewclaw removal), debarking, cropping and docking, I have no problem with.

Docking and dewclaws are removed on puppies at 3 days of age. Their bones are not fully formed and do not all quite 'connect' yet, their nervous system is also not quite developed, so they are not quite yet privy to all sensations. As soon as the puppies are placed back with the mother, they are silent.
Many breeds of dogs that get their tails docked have very thick, powerful tails at the base, which end in very fine, whippy bones, covered by very fine, short hair. It's common for them to wag the tail against a hard surface, breaking the tail. Or for them to get them accidently shut in a door.

Dewclaws are an 'extra' claw on the outside of the paw/leg. They are very commonly removed. The reason I get them removed from the puppies (my parents bred, I encouraged them to have them removed) is that they are very prone to getting hung up on things. Only one of my dogs has dewclaws (as the other dog's were removed) and he has already gone through the painful experience of having his catch on something and be ripped off. Thankfully it was only the nail -had it been the whole toe, he would have been in much more pain.

Declawing, and debarking.
The way I see it -if you have exhausted many methods of training, and you can't come up with a better solution (or if you have to make one in a hurry), and if the bad barking, or property destruction continues, I see absolutely nothing wrong with this.
Some dogs will not stop barking -it's self rewarding for them, they just keep barking and barking and barking. And when it comes to the point that it is either debark the dog, or get rid of it (or move), I think that debarking is completely fine. Same with cats and declawing. I'm sorry -but some cats will NOT stop sharpening their claws on no-no objects, no matter how many alternatives you supply (note- only for indoor only cats -cats need their claws if they are outside).
Btw- I have seen declawed cats climb trees and hunt -it's not like it's the 'end of the world' for then -they're pretty smart.

Ear Cropping -If done properly, there is no problem with this. Especially for dogs in the show ring. MOST people don't even bother with this, as it is a long process of taping up the ears to get the cartilige to set before the ears will stand on their own. The majority of dogs getting their ears cropped are show dogs, and need this as a requirement for the ring.
There is usually little to no pain associated with cropping -I have never seen a miserable ear-cropped puppy. I've only seen them falling asleep as their owner changes their bandages.
Ear cropping does have a benefit, too, believe it or not. It staves off ear infections (by providing air circulation) that are all to easy to get with flop eared dogs. Look at it this way -wolves don't have floppy ears.


So, basically, yeah, the only thing I have a problem with here is beak splitting.

[sarahmom22]

I look at this topic this way:
I feed my animals human-grade food, because that is what I eat.
My animals sleep on comfortable beds, because that is what I sleep on.
If there is a procedure I wouldn't want done to me, I DO NOT have it done to my animals.
WHY? Because I love them.

I would NOT want my finger tips removed.
I would NOT want my voice box removed.
I would NOT want my jaw split in half.
I would NOT want my ears "carved" to look a certain way.
I would NOT want the base of my spine "trimmed" even if it was simply cartilage as an infant.

As far as declawing...I have 2 cats, a Siamese and a Ragdoll. They both have their claws, and guess what? My furniture is in just FINE condition. Why? Because I've trained them to claw where it's appropriate, on their scratching post. I also keep their nails trimmed (easy to do) and in the beginning I used "Soft Claws" to help till they learned to claw appropriately. I also used the "tinfoil on the furniture" method to keep them off the couch till they learned. There are ways to train cats that WORK, if only people weren't too LAZY to try.

The ONLY exception to this IMO is dewclaw removal when a puppy is only a few days old..why? because I've seen many that have been ripped/torn off when the dog is older, which is much more painful for the dog than it is to simply remove them when they are tiny pups...because they are simply hanging by a thin membrane of skin when they are tiny, as opposed to thicker skin when they are older, and the hanging dew's dont serve a purpose. Also, I've seen them get knicked/clipped off by other groomers as well accidently, and they're really not that safe for the dog to have.

[TreePilotIndie]

Well...Ear cropping/tail docking were created for a reason for dogs.

When they were first bred, to avoid the problems that may occur from the reasons they were bred.

As an example, Jack Russell Terriers who hunt, or do the jobs they were bred for, usually have their tail docked because it was helpful in pulling them out of holes.

In a way, I think it depends.
If you have a dog that does what it was bred for, tail docking and ear cropping may be a necessity.

I just think devoicing is terrible. My old piano teacher got a cocker spaniel from a rescue whose past owners had devoiced her. She was a sweet little thing.

[Beeks]

Skittles, I am with you an the removal of vocal cords in some extreme cases. My back yard neighbors had a pit bull that NEVER shut up. We had one whole summer we did not spend more than the time it took to water and mow in our back yard due to his insesent barking. It started at dawn and ended at dusk with no more than maybe 10 minute breaks, where I am assuming he must have napped from exhaustion.

Like you, I would have PAID for the surgery myself, but usually, it is not a matter of money in these cases, but a matter of courtesy. He was in a kennel on the back fence line where they could easily ignore the noise as their main living areas were to fhe front of the house. Pleas went unheeded.

The day came, when he got out of his kennel and somehow into our back yard. One of my dogs lost an ear before I could get them all inside and out of harms way. I called the authorities and they came and picked him up. Pits are illegal where I live, but you are given a "get out of jail free" card for the first offence as long as you relocate the dog or allow it to be put down. I am assuming, since he never reappeared, that they did one of the two.

[Sadah]

OK, I'm new on this board too and thought it was great until coming to this thread.
If all you people HONESTLY believe that all this stuff is cruel (granted, a few are), and want your pets to live wonderful happy lives, then maybe you should just turn them loose. Birds would not "choose" to live in cages, for even a few minutes if given the chance to be free.

We DO do things to our children, like DISAPLINE, that they don't like, but we do it to make them be better citasans to our homes, communities, and world.

Did ever stop to consider how many animals are already put down in this country (US) anyway. MILLIONS!!! You now want to ad to this already rising # by outlawing practices that may make an animal easy to live with???

Sorry, some of you people are just Waaaay out there. Many of you are jumping to conclusions about things you know NOTHING about.

I went to collage 20 years ago to become a certified veterinary technician. I still am one. Things have changed a LOT in those years. Pain medications that were not given or not safe enough to be given to small animals are now routinly used. I now work as an instrucoter for vet tech students at a collage in northern IL. All of our declaw procedures are done with pain meds on board before surgery even begins. They are dosed for several days afterwards as well. Special kitty litter is used in place of the clay for the benefits of tender feet and cleanliness. Declawing a cat does NOT remove the joint. It removes the very first digit of the phalanges, which in cats, is retractable, and therefor, non weight bearing. They are NOT walking around on stubs. Personally, I would much rather see a person declaw their kitten than wait until they are an adult, its tougher on the adults. Kittens don't have as much bone/physical weight and their joints, ligaments, tendons are still loose enough that the claws come out easier and they adjust faster. I would rather see a cat declawed and remain in their household than being turned over to a shelter and euthanized because there are already a gazillion cats there waiting to be adopted. I also don't believe in no-kill shelters, as I think this creates the impression that 'oh well, we can't keep him anymore, but someone will eventually adopt him' attitude. Believe me, after living in shelter conditions for sometimes years, these animals rarely adjust to a family situation unless that person/people are totally dedicated to rehabilitating an animal that has most likely developed some form of nerosis.

Tail docking a dewclaw removals are done between 3-5 days of age, not any older. The dewclaw at this point does not even articulate with metacarpal bone adjacent to it. Tails are done at this time too, usually using an instrument called a carmalt that crushes. This reduces pain overall in that the nerves are crushed, as well as the vessels, so no excessive bleeding. They are then usually stitched or glued shut and puppy is returned to mother. They then usually suckle, which releases endorphines, the 'feel good' hormones that further reduces the stress and stimulates healing. Although uncomfortable, they forget very quickly once returned to their mother. To you who anthropromophize so much, do you remember your first babyhood vaccinations???? Nope. Same deal, child comes back to mother and mom gives some soothing device for baby to suckle on, bottle, pacifyer, breast, thumb and walah--endorphine release.

Lets face it. Our world is not a perfect place, but for those of you screaming for blood, do you have any clue how horrible of a person YOU sound like???? Are you the same people bombing labs and blowing up abortion clinics???? How sane does that sound. If you want others to listen to your views, first, educate yourself on HOW a procedure is done (properly) and talk to people that have first hand knowledge and why. There will always be bad veterinarians, just as there are bad human doctors, but like someone above stated, don't throw out the baby with the bath water. Educate yourselves a little bit so you can speak without the emotional mob mentality that has been experienced here. I am shocked and appalled at what some of you have written.

Before anyone gets on my case about my own feelings, yes, I have one cat that is declawed. We 'aquired' her when my daughter was a tiny baby and she used her claws a lot. I didn't want to have to wait until my daughter had scares on her face and arms before I decided that kitty needed to be declawed (nor my young son). We have 2 other house cats that are not declawed. My declawed cat is let outside under supervision and can catch things and climb trees. We also have barn cats that are altered (so not to reproduce-gee, thats taking away an animal's 'right' too though isen't it??) All of our dogs are altered. We have horses that we ride, but I bet they'd rather hang out in the pasture grazing all day than to work for an hour or two with me.

We all 'force' unnatural cicumstances upon our pets because we want to live together with them. Birds are still wild creatures, completely undomesticated (except for chickens). Some people chose to accept them the way they are and understand their behaviour, some stick them in a cage and only let them out for short periods of time, some arrange their whole schedules around their birds, like they are human children. No one thing is right or wrong as long as the animal AND their human counterparts are happy. Thats the amazing thing about choice. Don't threaten or set out to lynch a person with views different than your own.

Just one more thought. How many of us have had animals get ill and have to be taken to the vet?? Given medications that are not 'natural'. In nature, these animals would either get over their disease, or die from it. Many wonderful new advancements have been made to keep our pets healthier, happier and live longer. Would you put a dog through cruciate repair surgery or let it heal, in its own unstable state, on its own?? Been through that repair myself and its VERY PAINFUL. Very slow recovery with lots of physical therapy to go through. I made the concious choice to have the repair done, as I wanted a more stable knee. A dog, for instance, does not have a say in the matter, nor whether they are vaccinated, neutered, etc.
Just some food for thought.

[Melza]

i trust you have NO pets jamie...

and turning pets lose in this day in age, after domestication, is as bad as killing them...

ages of declawing varies on the vet, and adult cats are often done by selfish humans, yes they remember, yes it hurts.

actually, after reading you have pets, and have declawed i just deem you as hypocritical. .

promote and stand up for declawing all you like, but you dont you all the facts either.

[Sadah]

Melza,
I know the facts better than you do. I've been working in the veterinary profession for over 20 years now and have been involoved in hundreds of declaw procedures. Yes, I know it hurts, but they get over it, just like they do any other type of surgical procedure. Also, I do NOT promote declawing, but as I said, I would rather see it done to let the cat live in it's home than be turned into a shelter or just turned loose as we all too often see. I grew up with cats, they always had a scratching post, mine have too, but there are just some cats that will still use them and I will ALWAYS put my children's safety above that of my animals if it comes down to that. This particular cat is now a 10 year old, dignified cats that still "claws" on things, sleeps at my feet every night and is a wonderful companion. You don't know me personally, so you don't know that I chose my profession because of my love for animals. I have taken in many 'throw aways' and its a good thing we live on a small farm, as there is always room for another barn cat or two. I teach my students compassion and empathy, not only for the pets, but the clients they will be working with. I teach them to educate people so fewer 'cosmetic' procedures will be done, although I don't think declawing is cosmetic. Some people just have it done without any thought as to the consequences of it, thats where the education part comes in. Sometimes people will try other things, such as the soft paws, they just don't know about the availability. You can't dump everyone who has surgeries done on their pets into the 'cruel pool' because YOU don't know all the facts either.

My point to turning animals loose is that so many of you have been saying we should accept animals as they are. If that is true, then we should let them live as God intended. NO surgical procedures, no neutering or spaying, no wingtrims, no cages, we should just let them run amuck. Thats what some of the extreme animal rights groups are advicating anyway, an some of you just play into their hands. Let them get one law past that makes it illegal to say, dock tails, and thats just the beginning . Pretty soon you won't have any say on how you animal is housed, what you feed it or if you are even allowed to own it. Just look at that bill that everyone is trying to stop. If that gets passed, you won't be able to own any animal that isen't indigenous to the USA. Lots of well meaning but naive people had the horse slaughter ban passed because its 'cruel'. Lets see, a state park in wisconsin called Wild Cat Mountain now has its own herd of domestic horses. Most of whom have never had to look further than a bucket for food and water and are now starving to death and being hit by cars. With our economic conditions here in the US, people have found they can no longer afford their horse. The market is flooded, very few are buying and its only the very high end that are moving. Sale barns have had to lock their gates so people don't just dump their horse there. Slaughter is no longer an option, so the poor horses are turned loose, left defenseless against weather, cars and the ability to find a suitable food source. There are so many things that are worse than a quick death by a captive bolt.

You need to look at the WHOLE picture. Don't call people hypocrites until you've walked in their shoes and seen what they've seen and actually read my post. I didn't advocate for turning animals loose, but that is what happens when someone finds all the options are closed for them. And yeah, I've had one cat have a front paw declaw when she was a kitten, so string me up. It was either that or I didn't take the kitten and the person was going to have the whole litter euthanized. Also, the drug they use is a combination of drugs including Ketamine, which is a dissociatvie drug, so no, they don't remember the procedure, they remember some discomfort afterwards, but a good vet is going to keep on top of that pain meds for days following surgery. Also, I was giving optimal times for doing the surgery. I know adult cats are done all the time too and yes, it is more difficult on them because the joints are tighter and they weigh more. Again, is this the perfect situation, NO.

Get out of your bubble and realize that not everyone has the same options and like I said before, I'd rather see a declawed cat than a dead one, in a pile with all the other dead cats, because someone gave it up for excessive clawing. There are people that live in apartment buildings that will allow cats, but only if they are declawed. There are elderly people who may have to be on cumadin (a blood thinner) and cannot risk being scratched. Should hemopheliacs not be allowed to own a declawed cat???????

Just because it isen't right for some of you doesn't mean you get to stand in judgement of what other people do. I am against cruelty, dog fighting, cock fighting, debarking unless under EXTREME circumstances and ear cropping. Obviously, some of these are outlawed practices and with good reason, but unless you have a completely outdated, uncompetant veterinarian, these other surgeries are done under general anesthesia and with pain medications before and after sugery. (except for dewclaws and docking).

Like I and someone before me stated, don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Beeks]

I do not condone the altering of any animal part for esthetic purposes. But as stated above, when the option is worse then do what any responsible pet owner should do, and use what is available to remedy the problem rather than dump your problem in the lap of somebody else.

All my dogs and cats are spayed or neutered. They certainly suffered discomfort in the days that followed, but what is the alternative? They are not purebred and do not need to populate the world with more non-purebreds and since I do not wish to breed them, it is also a huge convenience to me, not to have to put diapers on my females and chase other irresponsible peoples strays off my property, nor do I have to worry about my boys becoming Houdinis's when they smell a female in heat.

I have a good friend who is a vet tech, her Pit Bull is neutered but has natural ears. Her Tom, is declawed and neutered. She left the Pits ears long, because there is no harm in not doing so. She declawed the cat, because he was a menace and the alternative was rehoming (or as I would think of it, passing the buck) or using what options available to make him livable. She chose the later.

Dew claws, if left on, can become quite painful to an adult dog if it is in the field much. Weeds, sticks and grasses can hook on them and tear the flesh. Better a little nip at 1 week of age, rather than a big rip at 2 years of age.

As long as official standards call for croppings and dockings there will be croppings and dockings. I may be hypocritical in that I like the look of a cropped ear, but I would not crop my dogs ears. For one thing, I don't need the hassle as it is a lengthy process and secondly, there are too many really bad ear cropping vets out there that can really mess things up and once the damage is done it is rarely fixable.

So, I guess if the alterations are purely esthetic I would pass, but do like the look. But if it will allow the animal to live peacefully in the same home for it's lifetime, then the initial discomfort pales in comparison to a lifetime of happy living.

[~Lori~]

I've left posts reflecting both sides of this topic. Much of this thread was fighting and insults. It is a hot topic. I'm locking this thread.