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Thread: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

  1. #1
    Old admin Baby Tviokh's Avatar
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    Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

    ...all extremely cruel, and many (with the exception of beak splitting) well accepted, "routine" and not frowned upon.

    Declawing of cats, debarking of dogs, ear cropping, tail docking, devoicing of parrots, and beak splitting are all fairly 'routine' procedures that many people don't think twice about having done to their pets because it's "just the way it is".
    Less commonly, vets will pull the teeth of dogs to "solve" a biting problem.

    Beak splitting is done to "stop biting" and aggression in parrots; mainly male cockatoos.

    Debarking dogs and devoicing parrots is used to eliminate "noise".

    Declawing involves the amputation of the first joint of each toe of the cat. Declawing, even when done "right" is extremely painful for the cat. Owner laziness is the only real reason it happens; you may try to cover it up with "i want to save my couch!" or "she scratches me!", but overall, it's your own laziness for not teaching the cat how to properly use its claws.
    My two declawed cats came to me that way. If they had been mine from kittens, they would both still have all of their claws.
    If you don't want a pet with claws, don't get a cat.

    Ear cropping and tail docking are nothing more than cosmetic and for the sake of "dog shows" and human eyes; ear cropping is extremely painful, as is tail docking.

    www.livejournal.com/talkr...emid=62820

    If you want procedure specific links:

    Devoicing & beak splitting:
    www.pacifier.com/~birdart...tions.html
    In case that link doesn't work, the full text can be found here:
    www.practical-pet-care.co...2606291131

    Debarking:
    www.newss.ksu.edu/WEB/New...00802.html
    www.helpinganimals.com/h-mut-debark.html
    This one addresses a lot: www.idausa.org/facts/cossurgery.html

    Ear cropping & tail docking:
    www.helpinganimals.com/h-mut-ear.html
    www.briarleabouvier.com/ear_cropping.htm
    www.bloomington.in.us/~st...blem2.html

    The AAHA (American Animal Hosptial Association) does not recommend ear cropping or tail docking: www.aahanet.org/web/posit...e.html#ear

    Declawing:
    amby.com/cat_site/declaw.html
    cats.about.com/cs/declawi...g/9_1.html

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    Old admin Baby Tviokh's Avatar
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail doc

    The only time I can see tail docking as being necessary are for some working breeds when they are in a working situation where a tail would be dangerous (as in, it would easily or frequently become caught or injured).
    In those cases it shouldn't be a blanket breed docking, it should be case by case.

    Other than that, there's no good reason for docking.

  3. #3
    I'm A budgieaholic Tailfeather kathy5's Avatar
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    well

    i totally agree with everything but the declawing of cats. I had both of mine done and they were fine they were In door cats and no matter what we did to stop them from scratching they wouldn't and we tired everything. now mind you we just didn't go down to our vet and say go for it we did a lot of research about the different procedures. and looked In to this for a few months. we also talked to our vet some time befor we made up our minds to do anything.
    we have 2 happy cats who are very well adujusted :n

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    Old admin Baby Tviokh's Avatar
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    Re: well

    kathy, I still don't think it's right or compassionate to have a cosmetic surgery (and that is what declawing is) done for personal reasons.
    There is no health reason in existence to declaw a cat.

    Declawing a cat, no matter how you try to justify it, is very painful and borderline cruelty.
    It'd be like chopping your fingers off at the first joint.
    Yes, it's "routine", but it's also extremely painful for the cat and there is NO good reason for it.

    There are SO many other options:
    Soft paws
    Regular claw clipping
    Furnature guards
    ...and if a cat has a wide variety of things to scratch on and has the behavior positively redirected (cats can't be trained like dogs, they're much more stubborn), it can be curbed.
    NOTHING will stop a cat from scratchign 100%, and IMO, when you get a cat, you get everything that goes with it, including the claws.

    Don't want to deal with claws? Don't get a cat. *shrug*

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    Egg's Cracking... lilangel5682's Avatar
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    Re: well

    I agree SO MUCH!! If you can't deal with the noise of a dog or bird, or with the claws of a cat, then DONT GET ONE!
    It is painful for them! Just because we want to find a quick solution to what really are behavioural problems
    It's gotta stop!

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    Old admin Baby Tviokh's Avatar
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    Re: well

    Even better you can try to figure out WHY the dog is barking, and correct appropriately.

    Ours is allowed to bark at people who come into the yard that aren't us, and is allowed to bark when he hears someone trying to open the deck doors (hint: they're always locked).

    He is not allowed to bark for any other reason, and gets a sharp "QUIET!" the instant the "woof" starts to come out of his mouth.
    If that doesn't work, he gets a collar pop with a "QUIET", and if THAT doesn't work, he gets his prong collar put on and the next bark that comes out is met with a HARD correction (as in, hard enough to make him yelp). He only got the hard correction once. We were on a walk and he saw fit to bark at a passing dog that was having a spaz attack at us.
    In no way do I want him thinking it's okay to bark at other dogs; other dogs may be poorly socialized and have lousy manners that cause them to bark incessantly at people who walk by, but MY dog is not going to be one of them.
    That only had to happen once before he figured out that not listening to "QUIET" would result in an unplesent sensation.

    He now responds to "QUIET" with or without a collar on...really the only time a 'woof' escapes him now is when he gets really into playing..and he once barked at me when I got up in the morning; I guess I looked awful and groggy and he didn't know who I was.

  7. #7
    JJSOLOMON
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail doc

    My name is Jason, I had introduced myself quite a while back in the intro forum, but haven't been around much since, so here I am.

    Anyway, I just wanted to weigh in on the declawing part of this debate, and quite a one-sided one it is. Now, nobody can claim to know quite how painful it may or may not be for a cat to be declawed because let's face it, we are not cats. For people to say that because they hear shrieks, the animal is in an immense amount of pain is a tad bit ridiculous. To this day, whenever I receive a tetenus shot in my pinky finger, my shrieks can be heard the world over! My point is this .. let us not get ahead of ourselves here.

    Admittedly, I have never heard of the dog-devoicing procedure, so I really cannot comment on it. Now, as for me, I have a 15-month old domestic gray-haired tabby cat named Jynx, and quite the fiesty one she is. I got her as a gift for my mother on her birthday and she has become a great addition to our family. Our last cat grew to age 16 before she died back in 1996. As someone who is allergic to cats (and most pets, guess it is the dander), it wasn't the brightest move in the world, but it always felt like there was so much missing from this house. Anyway, much like our last cat, it was my mother's decision to have the cat declawed. And I can tell you that she has been fine since, she is extremely playful and as boisterous as ever, if not moreso.

    For people to say that if you want to get a pet declawed, you should not have one is ridiculous and somewhat offensive. First of all, it is a personal decision to make, especially for those who elect to keep their cats as house pets. Of course, if you are the type of person who lets the pet out of the house, they must obviously keep their claws in order to survive, no question about it. But aside from the usual "ouch, she scratches" and "I don't want her scratching my furniture" arguments, there are other factors that each owner must consider as well. I say this knowing someone who had a cat and came home one day to find their beloved pet (who was perhaps a little too wild), laying in a pool of blood in their bedroom because the cat's claws became stuck in the carpet. Anything can happen, and everyone has a different reason for doing different things.

    My point is this. My family had our cat declawed, and that was a personal decision for us to make. It's not exactly what I would dub as animal cruelty. Believe me, I have been waiting in the vet's office and have seen some horrific examples of stray animals being abused by people on the street. To those who say "don't get a pet, you shouldn't have one if that's what you want to have done," I say you're wrong, but you are entitled to your opinion. Again, I am only speaking of this issue as I do not know much about dog-devoicing or beak-splitting.

    I do think this is a thoughtful debate to be haivng though. Just felt I had to toss in my two cents. Happy holidays to all.

  8. #8
    Hormonal DizzyDezzy's Avatar
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail doc

    You can't devoce your children, break their teeth if they bite or chop of their fingers if they scratch, yet it's ok to do it to a dog or a cat, as they can't complain?
    If your cat attacks you and scratches you, it may be because it's frightened or has some serious behavioral problems. You should try and aim at the cause of the problem, not solve it the 'easy' way by having the cats toes chopped off at the vet's office (yes, that's what declawing is).
    Taking the time and making the effort of having the cat's claws properly trimmed and in good condition would stop it both from scratching somebody seriously and from getting the claws stuck in carpet and things like that.

  9. #9
    josie
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    Necro: more links for you

    Thanks for posting this, necroangel.

    I've long been actively opposing declawing and other forms of animal mutilation, but I had no idea about the beak splitting! How horrid!

    Anyway, I thought you might like to add the following links to your anti-declawing arsenal. Here's one that contains a whole bunch of good links. (Warning! The first link has graphic photos of the surgery and its aftermath.)

    declaw.lisaviolet.com/

    This one is good, too:
    www.sniksnak.com/cathealth/declaw.html

    We adopted an elderly cat who had been declawed by her original owner. I won't bore you with the details of how we came to adopt her, but I passionately oppose this ghastly mutilation of a poor cat. It can even cripple a cat for life. We rearranged our home so the poor declawed cat could get around well and up onto the furniture (she was unable to jump, but could walk just fine). She died peacefully this past summer at the age of 25 and enjoyed her kitty life right up to the end. But I often thought how much happier she would have been if only they hadn't declawed and crippled the poor thing!

    Many years ago, an old friend of mine adopted a declawed cat whose owners got rid of her because she became a "biter" after being declawed. Well, gee, what did those people expect? Poor cat had no other means of defense.

    Again, thanks for posting this thread.

  10. #10
    Banned Tailfeather Squawk and Howl's Avatar
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    Re: well

    Quote Originally Posted by kathy5
    i totally agree with everything but the declawing of cats. I had both of mine done and they were fine they were In door cats and no matter what we did to stop them from scratching they wouldn't and we tired everything. now mind you we just didn't go down to our vet and say go for it we did a lot of research about the different procedures. and looked In to this for a few months. we also talked to our vet some time befor we made up our minds to do anything.
    we have 2 happy cats who are very well adujusted :n
    i completely disagree, for the same reason as many people agree with wing clipping. it prtects the animal.

    we have a rescued cat (Flutie) that was abandoned by people after they moved. she had been declawed. what happens if your cats acciedentally get outside? they have no way to defend themselves or climb a tree.

    Flutie had a huge gaping wound on her belly and still is afraid of people. (2 years later). my parents declaw their cats, too & i think it is cruel. to adapt a cat's pshysiology to protect a meterial possession is just vanity! (you should see my couch- ugh! but it is the cat's couch too- so they have stredded it. whatever. it's just a couch. i would much rather have an intact, healthy cat than a designer couch.

    vets that are cat specialists & advocates never do this procedure. many times, it is painful & continues to be throughout their lives. all for the sake of some material goods? no way jose!

    i'm surprised. we all know birds make noise here, but why don't we realize that cats scratch? they do that, it's natural & instinctive. you don't like it? don't get a cat!

  11. #11
    Ferret Freak Tailfeather PhoenixK's Avatar
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    Declawing... Argh!

    I sooooooo agree on how inhumane declawing is!!! I mean, vets in Europe won't do it because they understand that it's cruel.

    And yeah, it is removing the whole first joint of a cat's fingers. It takes away their primary means of defense, and it makes them actually have to walk differently. And "indoor cats" sometimes get out by accident. I dont' think ANY cat would choose to be declawed.

    When you accept an animal into your home, you accept everything about that animal. You can train that animal in humane ways to avoid negative behavior. There are so many alternatives to declawing -- plastic carpet runners, protective corners for your sofas/chairs, teaching your cat that you don't like it when he scratches. And most importantly, cutting your cat's nails! If people stay up to date on their obligation to trim their cats' nails, they would know that it reeeeeally makes them a lot less sharp.

    I agree wholly that people who are willing to declaw their cats should not have cats. What's really appalling is the declawing and defanging of ferrets, both of which are entirely stupid and require major surgery. But back to the cats...

    When I was in junior high, my two cats were both seven years old. For these seven years, we had to keep telling our mother that we did not want our cats declawed, and our mother continually PROMISED that she would not declaw the cats. Then, when she picked me up from school one day, she mentioned that she had taken the cats to the vet. I knew that they had already gotten their shots, and some part of me just automatically realized that she had gotten them declawed. I remember crying a lot.

    I went with her to pick up my cats. Both of them were sitting huddled together, seriously looking as miserable as I have ever seen them. They looked confused and sad, and they were obviously in pain. Their paws were still bloody. It was horrible. When we brought them home, my mother had not replaced the cat litter with newspaper (which you are supposed to do if you declaw your cats). Our older cat jumped in and then jumped right out because his paws were in pain. I don't think ANY pet owner should EVER intentionally inflict pain on their pets -- mutilate their pets -- for the sake of "convenience."

    It's been eleven years, and I still can't forgive my mother.

  12. #12
    Baby oihane's Avatar
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

    *sigh* I don't know guys. I wouldn't ever do any of the ear/tail docking, devoicing, ear splitting, etc. Most of that is only done for fashion and no other reason, and I think that's plain wrong. Our 3 cats are declawed in the front though. My parents did make the decision, and I always felt bad because of it.

    However, they are all happy, healthy cats. And I kind of see the safety issue in it, because they are all pretty rough with playing with each other, and they are probably safer without front claws. My aunt and uncle's cat scratched the other cat's eye before she was declawed. But, perhaps there wouldn't be an issue with the claws, who knows.

    Dani, I do resent you saying that all owners of declawed cats think of their cats as "property". Yes, there are owners like that, but I love all my cats very very much, and I have never once thought of them as property. Yes, maybe we could've thought of different alternatives, it's just how we knew it to be done. My parents learned that way, and that's just how it was. I don't hate them for it, they never did it with any kind of sinister intentions. You may be mad at me for saying that I resented your comment, but that's just how I feel.

    I agree with some of what JJSOLOMON said, that everyone here is attacking anyone who has done these things to a pet. Yeah, I don't like them either, but still, what is done is done. I would never get a dog's ears/tail docked, or get it devoiced or get my birds beak split or anything, and I don't know if I would get a cat declawed, but I probably wouldn't. Yes, there are more alternatives now (they're more known and marketed now at any rate), and I agree with JJSOLOMON that we should be trying to offer alternatives for these things instead of saying that whoever does it should be shot.

    Besides, he/she was just offering their opinion, and everyone attacked him/her. JJSOLOMON was right in that attacking makes people afraid to post. Hell, I'm afraid of posting this cause I'm afraid everyone who reads this will hate me forever because my cats are declawed.

    I guess maybe I'm a hypocrite for saying that all that other stuff is cruel but yet having declawed cats, but that's just the way it happened. Perhaps if I could travel back in time I would change it. But the fact remains that they are, but I still try to make their lives as happy and healthy as possible, cause I love them all like they were my children.

    I'm sorry if anyone took offense to what I just said, I wasn't trying to be defensive, although it was difficult when everyone was on the offensive.

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    meow? Brand New Egg Muse's Avatar
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

    Maybe I'm just beating a dead horse, but it's a horse I feel needs at least one more lashing.

    I won't touch on beak splitting or devoicing, as in all my studies in animal sciences, I have yet to run into any "pros". Declawing, I have known cats that needed the proceedure done due to the direction the claws were growing (into the pads and toes), but I"m of the mind of if you don't want to work with a cat to stop scratching your furniture (I've owned 5 cats in my lifetime, and we've only had minimal furniture damage), then perhaps you shouldn't get a cat.

    My first point on dogs is this. NATURE didn't create these dogs. MAN created them. Man created the breeds of dog we see today, and man didn't create a perfect creature, so alterations are made for purposes.

    Ear cropping has it's purpose. If you have a dog that's a family pet who goes for walks and hangs around the house with you, that purpose is lost and the procedure becomes cosmetic and unnecessary. However some breeds of working dogs who actually work, ear cropping is done to avoid injury to the sensitive floppy ears. I've seen ear injuries. I've dealt with the shredded ear of a hunting dog. It's *not* pretty.

    Docking is a different story. I think to say I'm "pro-docking" is a bit extreem, but I'm definately not againced it.

    When I spent time working at a vet office, we had an absurd amount of commonly docked breeds (and some that arn't docked as the standard) with natural tails come in with tail injuries. They didn't injure their tails by working on the field, or in some freak accident. Their tails were injured by something loosely refered to as "Happy Tail Syndrom" or "Crate Tail Syndrom".

    Dobermans, Rotties and Bulldogs were the more common ones with this type of injury. We also saw Mastiff breeds, Dalmatians, Retrievers (Labrador most commonly), Shepherds, and a wide variety of mutts. Some were as minor as being treated for a small wound. Others had a small wound that wouldn't heal and just kept getting worse. Some required emergency amputations for infection that had set in, small fractures, or large breaks.

    These dogs all injured their tails by wagging them. When the dogs were happy, the tail goes insane, and it hits coffee tables, doors, walls, furniture, people, and whatever else happens to be in the way.

    HERE is a story of just such a thing happening to a retriever.

    Some may have poor intentions when it comes to tail docking, but I feel it serves an important purpose. We can't stop a dog from wagging it's tail, but we can prevent later injuries in dogs prone to tail injuries (such as dobermans, rotties, bulldogs and mastiff breeds, who tend to have weak tails prone to breakage, or even who suffer from Limber Tail).

    I don't intend to turn anybody on to tail docking. If you don't want to have your puppy done, all the more power to you! I just hope the purpose it does serve can be seen and that it's not viewed as something malicious done to dogs.

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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

    Yeah I know this subject has been poked to death, but I feel the need to add my lil 2 cents worth. I had a cat a few years back, when he was young I had to have a "partial" declaw done on the poor critter. He had been born with 10 toes on each front foot, 5 of the 10 did not re tract, so he was constantly running around with half his claws out. I hadn't planned on getting him de clawed at all, you never know if the slick things are going to get out and taking their claws away is taking away a natural defense for them. With all the stray cats in the world (pardon the example) it's like going to a gun fight with a bow and arrow, they can't defend themselves. I decided I had to do it one day when my hubby, then boyfriend called me freaking out the the cat was bleeding to death and he didn't know from where. I rushed home to find Mike laying in hubbys lap almost to weak to move, we rushed him to the vets to find out that while he had been playing he got one of the extra claws caught on the carpeting and when it yanked out it yanked the whole thing going all the way inside which then ripped open a vein in his foot. We got VERY lucky, he didn't bleed to death as cats are bleeders and will bleed to death easily. We immediatly got him partially declawed, leaving all retractable nails, only taking those that didn't move in.
    I only repeat this story because I know that in many areas they are trying to ban declawing all togather, which I fully support, but in many cases, the zealous want it banned no matter what. There are extreme reasons that it is needed and in some cases like Mikes, potentially fatal if you don't, who knows what might have happened the next time he would have yanked one out, what if hubby hadn't have been home, etc.

    Beak splitting though!! UGH! WHat is WRONG with people???? And what kind of demented mind did the person have to come up with that idea!?! I couldn't imagine ever, thinking of way to stop a too from attacking another too, probably mate, and thinking "Hey I'll rip his face apart, so he can't bite, great idea!" Wtf???? I'd never seen it before this thread, and if I ever did in person, I'd probably be arrested for some rash action, that's insane. And sick. THe the vets that do it ought to have their fingers broke so THEY can't hurt anything anymore.



    I looked at all the caged animals in the shelter... the cast-offs of human society
    I saw in their eyes love and hope, fear and dread, sadness and betrayal.
    And I was Angry.
    "God," I said, "this is terrible! Why don't you do something?"
    God was silent for a moment and the He spoke softly.
    "I have done something," He replied.
    "I created You."

  15. #15
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    Re: Beak splitting, declawing, devoicing, ear & tail docking

    I do agree with some of what you are all saying, but i also have a lot to dissagree with. The first this is "cats cannot be trained like dogs" Ah, but they can. Both of my catscan site and stay on command and are declawed. The reason for this is that both of our cats have hurt themselves with their claws. One of them got caught on a carpet and almost ripped it right out. They only time they used them was to fight with each other, and as a result, when they went in to be fixed the claws went with. This wasn't a sort of punichment to them, but more of a safty percation. You clipped the wings of a bird so that they don't fly out a window, we declawed the cats so that theyt would hurt themselves again or hurt each other. And as got the pain, i'm sure it hurts much less to have them sugicly removed then having them ripped out. The durgs that they put them on reduce the pain so that they barly even know what's going on! I had hip sugery 4 times and i can tell you it was really bad, and i still have to go in for more, but i can tell you now, i'd much rather be in the state i'm in now then what i was 4 years ago. It's the same with your cat. Rip them out or sergicly remove them? Tail docking and ear cropping are the same, all put into place years ago to stop dogs from being hurt during a hunt. Most puppies that will have their tail cropped are cropped at 5 weeks old and is compleatly humain, it's not like they take out the scissors and do it on the spot! most dogs do look nice with long tails, but i'd rather have a dog with a cropped tail then one who ripped his own tail off! The other part i agree with, it declawing and teething dogs (i've seen it) and devoicing various animals. These are things that they do naturally and can be avoided, where as there are things that just happen. Dogs need their teeth (obviously!) and their claws to be able to move and interact in everyday life. I've trained my naughbors dog not to bark in a matter of 2 days, there is no reason to take awat somthing so close to them as their voice. There are things that we do to our cats and dogs for their well being, but there is a line. Just my oppinion Raine

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