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Thread: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

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    Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    I have a baby love bird, Peaches, that I am trying to determine what color it is.
    The mother is a Peach faced lutino, the father, I believe, is an Australian Cinnamon with violet factor (perhaps even split cinnamino?)
    This is their first mating and the only baby to hatch is Peaches. I have included the link for photos of the dad and of the baby.
    Can someone tell me what color the dad is, what color Peaches (the baby) is and if you are able to determine the sex since these are sex-linked mutations.

    The Dad
    http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...achmentid=6661

    Peaches
    http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...achmentid=6664

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    I'm not sure since I'm not really a mutation expert. I do know that Caribou's dad was a yellow bird (whether it was lutino, creamino, cinnamon...I have no idea!) and his mom was seagreen. They only had one yellow chick and the other two were seagreen like Caribou. Your baby is very beatiful though! And the dad isn't too shabby himself!

    Orca Blue: double violet blackmasked lovebird
    Sitka: blue series blackmasked lovebird
    Caribou: seagreen peachfaced lovebird
    Lucky Firefly: creamino peach face lovebird

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Quote Originally Posted by lkglisa View Post
    I have a baby love bird, Peaches, that I am trying to determine what color it is.
    The mother is a Peach faced lutino, the father, I believe, is an Australian Cinnamon with violet factor (perhaps even split cinnamino?)
    This is their first mating and the only baby to hatch is Peaches. I have included the link for photos of the dad and of the baby.
    Can someone tell me what color the dad is, what color Peaches (the baby) is and if you are able to determine the sex since these are sex-linked mutations.

    The Dad
    http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...achmentid=6661

    Peaches
    http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...achmentid=6664
    Dad looks to be a SF violet D aqua pallid (aka medium dutch blue violet australian cinnamon)

    Peached is a double dark factor, the dark rump gives that away, so she must of inheritted 1 dark factor from each parent, meaning mom and dad both have 1 dark factor, moms is masked byt the ino mutation. Peaches looks aqua like dad (see the whiteface, not red). This means mom is split to aqua(dutch blue) aswell.

    Peaches is also pallid(australian cinnamon) which makes her a 'her'! She may also have a violet factor, but the 2 dark factors and pallid will mask that out.

    Here's what the parents are:

    dad: SF violet D aqua pallid
    1 violet factor, 1 dark factor, aqua(dutch blue) and pallid(australian cinnamon)

    mom: D green ino /aqua
    1 violet factor, lutino and split to aqua(dutch blue)

    The expected young from this pair would be:

    MALES:
    1.75% D pallidIno /aqua
    1.75% SF violet D pallidIno /aqua
    10.75% DD pallidIno /aqua
    10.75% SF violet DD pallidIno /aqua
    12.5% D aqua pallidIno
    12.5% SF violet D aqua pallidIno
    1.75% DD aqua pallidIno
    1.75% SF violet DD aqua pallidIno
    1.75% pallidIno /aqua
    1.75% SF violet pallidIno /aqua
    10.75% aqua pallidIno
    10.75% SF violet aqua pallidIno
    10.75% D pallidIno /aqua
    10.75% SF violet D pallidIno /aqua

    FEMALES:


    1.75% D pallid /aqua
    1.75% SF violet D pallid /aqua
    10.75% DD pallid /aqua
    10.75% SF violet DD pallid /aqua
    12.5% D aqua pallid
    12.5% SF violet D aqua pallid
    1.75% DD aqua pallid
    1.75% SF violet DD aqua pallid

    1.75% pallid /aqua
    1.75% SF violet pallid /aqua
    10.75% aqua pallid
    10.75% SF violet aqua pallid
    10.75% D pallid /aqua
    10.75% SF violet D pallid /aqua

    (D = 1 dark factor DD= 2 dark factors SF=single factor /=split pallid=australian cinnamon)

    Peaches is likely to be one of the 2 highlighted in red.

    (However, she could be something way off, like cinnamon (american cinnamon) , meaning dad is split cinnamon, but she would have a greener tinge to her and her flight feathers would be dark with a brownish hue)

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    WOW! That is a great genetic lessons!!! I have been studying many websites and using the genetics calculators but you have explained it better than anyone else! Thanks for the valuable information.

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Peaches is just gorgeous. I love Australian Cinnamons with two dark factors. The yellow with the grey rump is such a beautiful color combination.

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Aw!! I want Peaches!!

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Thanks again to "Mask". the genetics expert for advising Peaches color and sex. Thanks to all for your nice comments and warm welcome. This is my first bird and first time to a forum so thanks again for all of your hospitality. Peaches is very young, but in the future, if I breed her, what are some opinions for a mate? (green or blue series, pied, color mutations, etc.)

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    If you enjoyed it, here's a bit more to get you going! haha!

    Pallid. I'll call it pallid rather than Australian cinnamon, because it's much easier to type and Australian Cinnamon is a totally unappropriate name for this mutation, as I will soon explain. So, pallid is a eumelanin reducing mutation. Eumelanin is the dark pigment found inside in the inner structure of the feather. With a green bird, when all the eumelanin is removed we get a yellow bird, like a lutino. With a blue bird, when all eumelanin is removed we get a white bird, like an albino). You should always avoid combining multiple eumelanin reducing mutations as they just mask each other out and make it difficult, often impossible to recognise the mutations present. So, other mutations to avoid would be dominant and recessive pied, dilute, edged dilute, ino (creamino and lutino) etc.

    Pallid is also an allele of SL-ino. (sex-linked ino). Seeing as you like genetics I will try and explain alleles, which is one of the hardest things to figure out,I found. Now is where it gets painfully confusing! Let me try and explain...

    A gene is created by 4 different bases: cytosine(c), guanine(g), adenine(a) and thymine(t). These bases always pair up one way or another; (c)+(g) and (a)+(t). There can be thousands of these bases, and the exact order in which they sit determines the genotype of the bird, meaning it determines the colour/appearance of the bird. So, thats the easy bit, keep following!....

    When birds breed, the genes, along with that specific base orders, are obviously replicated and passed onto their young. Sometimes, when the gene is been replicated it can mutate and the order of the bases can change slightly. Giving us a bird with a slightly different appearance. The original gene can then mutate again futher down the line and create yet another mutated version of the same gene, giving yet another different looking bird. These mutated genes are called mutiple alleles. Now because these genes are the same but slight variations of each other, they will occupy the same space on the chromosome.

    Pallid is an allele of SL-ino. Hopefully that will make more sense now! This also explains why Australian cinnamon is not suited as a name, because it is 100% not related to cinnamon. Here's an example:

    SL-ino + SL-ino = SL-ino bird (lutino).
    mutated SL-ino + mutated SL-ino = mutated SL-ino bird (pallid)
    SL-ino + mutated SL-ino = something inbetween.

    In the latter case, it would be a bird that has a colour somewhere inbetween a lutino and a pallid - a PallidIno. When talking of a bird with 2 alleles, we always combine the names of each individual as one word, but emphasise the start of each mutation with a capital letter. (for example, PallidIno, AquaTurquoise, PastelIno, PastelDEC etc etc).

    Only males can be PallidIno. Males have XX chromosomes, females have XY. These are sex-linked genes located on the X chromosome, so a female will never be a PallidIno, just like a female will never be split to a SL mutation.

    Although PallidIno's are not desired in shows, they are beautiful and guarenteed males, although nothing spectacular compared to lutino or pallids.

    Ok, that's the genetic lesson/headache out the way, so more about peaches potential future mate! You can combine pallid with other mutations like blue series, violet, dark factors, opaline, cinnamon and orange face etc. In order to get pallid young, peaches partner would need to be carrying the gene for pallid, because peaches can only pass on one gene! (meaning she can only produce split for pallid birds).

    Personally I love orangeface pallid, but if peaches does not have the gene for orangeface, you can't get orangeface young. Seeing as she is aqua(dutch blue) you could combine her with a pallid split aqua bird and get both green and blue series pallid young. She has 2 dark factors, meaning she will pass 1 dark factor to all of her young guarenteed. If you combine her with a mate who has 1 dark factor, you can get young with both 1 or 2 dark factors. It's not recommended to combine two birds who both have 2 darkfactors, for reasons I won't get into now.

    A single dark factor pallid split aqua, or a single dark factor green split pallid and split aqua would make a great partner for peaches, giving a wide range of different looking young, but each one will be recognisable for what they really are.

    If there's anything else you want to know genetic wise, let me know and i'll try explain. It is 2.30am here so I have probably made tons of mistakes which I will look over tomorrow after some hardcore coffee!

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Again, thank you for the amazing lesson! I will "study" what you've written and am always ready for any genetic lesson you wish to give. The masked lovebirds in your signature are astonishing!

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    I've read somewhere that dark factors physically change the structure of the feather is this why you shouldn't breed two DD factor birds?

    I was also hoping someone might be tell me if there is a difference in the coloring of seagreen and white-faced babies. One of my chicks is simple, a seagreen, the others have a violet factor mixed in so it makes it a bit harder to tell. They all seem to have more of a greenish tinge than I would expect from a white-faced violet. Males will be /american cinnamon. This whole thing would be easier is I could tell what the father is but he has the color of a seagreen and the beak of a dutch blue... Ugg. Lucky I find the genetics rather interesting.

    I hope to match up one of the chicks with a female medium white-faced DF violet. I love the coloring of these birds and cinnamon violets aswell. Heck.. I love them all!

    P.S. sorry for hyjacking your post :P Your lovies are simply put amazing. Peaches has to be my new favorite mutation. She looks so soft uptop but has an evil side lurking below


    Snowflake, Taz, Junior and HULK! (the most violet runt LOL)

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    You are welcome to join the post, I love genetics too. Your seagreens are beautiful! The genetics expert "Mask" answered my questions about Peaches (thank you for the compliment), perhaps he will continue with this post and fill you in on the DD factor and colors of your seagreens. The masked lovebirds are from his signature and I agree they are stunning!

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Yes, dark factors come from a change in the feather structure. It's hard to explain exactly how it works without covering the basics of feather colouration...so here we go! ...

    Feather types are very much the same in both eyering species and peachface, although peachface do have slightly different feathers in some areas, like the head for example, but we'll forget about them and talk about the typical feather.

    The feather is made from the shaft with lot's of barbs coming off it. Coming off these barbs are barbules! If we take a cross-section of one of the feather barbs, we see something similar to this:



    1. medullar cells
    2. eumelanin
    3. spongy zone
    4. cortex

    Natural daylight is visually colourless, but we know it contains all the spectral colours, and at certain angles it will reflect these colours.
    This natural daylight hits the barb of the feather and is drawn in to the dark eumelanin in the center. Some of it is reflected straight away but alot of it absorbs through the cortex of the feather. The cortex of the feather is packed full of yellow psittacin, which is a coloured pigment (psittacin is found is various colours, including red). As this light absorbs through the cortex, a small amount is reflected as yellow light but the majority of it continues on into the spongy zone. In the spongy zone interference causes the light to be reflected as blue light. As that blue light is reflected, it combines with the yellow psittacin to give us a green coloured feather (blue + yellow = green).

    With the blue mutation, all psittacin is removed from the bird. So with no yellow psittacin present, only the blue light is reflected, giving us a blue feather. In a parblue mutation, like aqua or turquoise, we see partial amounts of the psittacin is still present. With aqua we see around 40% is remaining, with turquoise we see only around 10-20%.

    With a dark factor, we don't see any change in the amount of dark eumelanin present, instead we see a structral change. The spongy zone of the feather decreases in size. With a single dark factor, the spongy zone decreases a certain size, causing 2 effects: 1. The interference causing the blue light changes slightly, causing a darker blue light to be reflected. 2. The eumelanin in the center of the barb has a bigger influence on the colouration.

    With 2 dark factors we see the exact same thing, only with a more significant decrease in the spongy zone, giving a greater impact.

    With DD birds, due to the decrease in the spongy zone, the barbs sit a little further apart from each other. This causes the barbules coming off the barbs to sit a little off, not quite a flush. The feathering then becomes looser, more fluffy and not as tight, flush and smooth as normal. Often the feathers can be so loose the bird can not fly properly; I have had a couple of birds like this myself.

    By selecting good dark factor parents, this can be controlled to produce better quality young. Crossing DD X DD will give young with loose feathering, especially if the parents are not so tightly feathered themselves. The best option to produce DD birds is to breed D x D, whilst the chances of DD young is smaller, the quality and feathering will be much better. DD x D gives greater chances of DD young, and so long as the parents are tight feathered, it's usually not a problem.


    With regards to your seagreen/whiteface it's not easy. Whitefaced come in a degree of "blueness" ranging from something like this whiteface violet:



    ....to something like this:



    Selective breeding can produce birds with virtually no psittacin present in the feathers, making them as close to real blue as possible. The standard whiteface bird will still have 10-20% remaining though.

    Looking at the photo's I would say they will all be seagreen, but photo's of the parents and any info on the grandparents would help more.

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    My avatar photo is of Peaches now at 5 months old. Her rump shows a bit more of the violet color. Picture was taken in natural light, no flash. Peaches is either a DD aqua pallid or a SF violet DD aqua pallid.
    Here is the link to Peaches most recent photo.
    http://www.tailfeathersnetwork.com/c...achmentid=6812

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    I Appreciate all member in this Forum ... specially dear Expert Mask
    Eng. Ahmed

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    Re: Lovebird Genetics- What color is the dad and baby

    Quote Originally Posted by mask View Post
    If you enjoyed it, here's a bit more to get you going! haha!

    Pallid. I'll call it pallid rather than Australian cinnamon, because it's much easier to type and Australian Cinnamon is a totally unappropriate name for this mutation, as I will soon explain. So, pallid is a eumelanin reducing mutation. Eumelanin is the dark pigment found inside in the inner structure of the feather. With a green bird, when all the eumelanin is removed we get a yellow bird, like a lutino. With a blue bird, when all eumelanin is removed we get a white bird, like an albino). You should always avoid combining multiple eumelanin reducing mutations as they just mask each other out and make it difficult, often impossible to recognise the mutations present. So, other mutations to avoid would be dominant and recessive pied, dilute, edged dilute, ino (creamino and lutino) etc.

    Pallid is also an allele of SL-ino. (sex-linked ino). Seeing as you like genetics I will try and explain alleles, which is one of the hardest things to figure out,I found. Now is where it gets painfully confusing! Let me try and explain...

    A gene is created by 4 different bases: cytosine(c), guanine(g), adenine(a) and thymine(t). These bases always pair up one way or another; (c)+(g) and (a)+(t). There can be thousands of these bases, and the exact order in which they sit determines the genotype of the bird, meaning it determines the colour/appearance of the bird. So, thats the easy bit, keep following!....

    When birds breed, the genes, along with that specific base orders, are obviously replicated and passed onto their young. Sometimes, when the gene is been replicated it can mutate and the order of the bases can change slightly. Giving us a bird with a slightly different appearance. The original gene can then mutate again futher down the line and create yet another mutated version of the same gene, giving yet another different looking bird. These mutated genes are called mutiple alleles. Now because these genes are the same but slight variations of each other, they will occupy the same space on the chromosome.

    Pallid is an allele of SL-ino. Hopefully that will make more sense now! This also explains why Australian cinnamon is not suited as a name, because it is 100% not related to cinnamon. Here's an example:

    SL-ino + SL-ino = SL-ino bird (lutino).
    mutated SL-ino + mutated SL-ino = mutated SL-ino bird (pallid)
    SL-ino + mutated SL-ino = something inbetween.

    In the latter case, it would be a bird that has a colour somewhere inbetween a lutino and a pallid - a PallidIno. When talking of a bird with 2 alleles, we always combine the names of each individual as one word, but emphasise the start of each mutation with a capital letter. (for example, PallidIno, AquaTurquoise, PastelIno, PastelDEC etc etc).

    Only males can be PallidIno. Males have XX chromosomes, females have XY. These are sex-linked genes located on the X chromosome, so a female will never be a PallidIno, just like a female will never be split to a SL mutation.

    Although PallidIno's are not desired in shows, they are beautiful and guarenteed males, although nothing spectacular compared to lutino or pallids.

    Ok, that's the genetic lesson/headache out the way, so more about peaches potential future mate! You can combine pallid with other mutations like blue series, violet, dark factors, opaline, cinnamon and orange face etc. In order to get pallid young, peaches partner would need to be carrying the gene for pallid, because peaches can only pass on one gene! (meaning she can only produce split for pallid birds).

    Personally I love orangeface pallid, but if peaches does not have the gene for orangeface, you can't get orangeface young. Seeing as she is aqua(dutch blue) you could combine her with a pallid split aqua bird and get both green and blue series pallid young. She has 2 dark factors, meaning she will pass 1 dark factor to all of her young guarenteed. If you combine her with a mate who has 1 dark factor, you can get young with both 1 or 2 dark factors. It's not recommended to combine two birds who both have 2 darkfactors, for reasons I won't get into now.

    A single dark factor pallid split aqua, or a single dark factor green split pallid and split aqua would make a great partner for peaches, giving a wide range of different looking young, but each one will be recognisable for what they really are.

    If there's anything else you want to know genetic wise, let me know and i'll try explain. It is 2.30am here so I have probably made tons of mistakes which I will look over tomorrow after some hardcore coffee!
    Dear Mask, Really your are magnificent ..
    if you pls I want to ask about PSITTACIN and its influence at the color of the birds as you explain EUMELANIN.
    thanks a lot

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